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At just 21 years old, Lucy Guo co-founded Scale AI. Two years later, she walked away and went on to become the world’s youngest self-made female billionaire.


Now, she’s building Passes, a creator monetization platform shaping the future of digital media. Lucy sits down with Fortune Daily to discuss: 
• Building an AI giant before the boom 
• Bouncing back from a contentious exit 
• Early bets on Anthropic and the future of artificial intelligence 
• How a new generation of multi-hyphenate tech founders is wielding global influence


Also on today's show: 
• Fame to Fortune: Kristin Stoller sits down with two-time World Cup champion and former USWNT goalie Ashlyn Harris to break down the business of sports. 
• High Stakes Strategy: Former FBI lead hostage negotiator and CEO of The Black Swan Group, Chris Voss, shares negotiation tactics for high-net-worth, high-security environments.
Subscribe to Fortune: ⁠https://fortune.com/subscribe/⁠ 
Additional images courtesy of Getty Images

00:00 Lucy Guo
14:25 Ashlyn Harris
18:40 Chris Voss


How Lucy Guo Became a Self-Made AI Billionaire | Fortune Daily

Features

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More than three-quarters of organizations now use AI in at least one business function, according to McKinsey data, yet adoption often outpaces execution. The harder task is to move beyond tokenmaxxing—treating ever-higher AI token consumption as a proxy for productivity—and turn promising tools into durable productivity gains and measurable business value. This session examines what that takes: orchestrating multiple AI systems at scale, developing models that work in local languages and contexts, and building sovereign AI capabilities that give organisations greater control over their data, models, and deployment choices. Technology leaders explore how businesses can embed privacy, security, and trust from the outset—while building AI that employees and customers can actually use, and that delivers value beyond the demo.

Alvin Kwock, Co-founder & CEO , AIFT 
Becca Carroll, Chief Strategy Officer, IDEO 
Pak-Sun Ting, Co-founder and CEO, Votee AI 
Madhav Timalsina, Vice President & Group Director, Infosys 
Nicholas Gordon, Editor, Asia, Fortune 

Beyond Tokenmaxxing: Accelerating AI Adoption

Conferences

This year’s energy crisis is a stark reminder that Asia remains reliant on Middle Eastern oil and exposed to the chokepoints and conflicts that affect its supply—even as China leads the world in clean-energy innovation and manufacturing. Can the region reduce its dependence on fossil fuels and reach peak oil demand as soon as 2030? Converting Asia’s technological edge into long-term energy security requires an alignment of capital, manufacturing capacity, infrastructure modernization and political will, alongside continued technological breakthroughs. Three leaders in the sector discuss the steps needed to accelerate the transition before the next shock inevitably occurs.

Haitian Pang, Chairman & CEO, JX Intelligence 
Youyuan Huang, Executive Vice Chairman and General Manager, BTR New Material Group 
Fang Wang, Executive Editor, Shanghai, Fortune China 

Accelerating the Energy Transition

OK, so this discussion will be conducted in English, in Chinese, so please refer to our headset to listen to our smart translation. Well, actually, so, actually, when we see that Asia, this is a huge market, even though we have very well developed new technology, but still Asia rely on the petroleum and energy from Middle East, which lead to some problem of the security. So now we invite the three distinguished guests to have the discussion. And 3, all of them coming from mainland China. I would like to share something of their background with you. So, They are, they, they are coming from the energy industry. So they also focus on the innovation of new material, etc. So today, I mean, one of the top topic is not the overcapacity, is the safety or how to have a better utilization of the recycled or new or green energy from China. So we would like to invite the three distinguished guests to share with us. So, first of all, I would like to start from Daniel. So Daniel, Daniel Liu, the vice president of Ginola. So please share something with us, something the background and also the situation of the energy, the energy transaction. So that happened in Asia. OK. Thank you. Well, in the past decade, I have run all over Asia Pacific region, over 20 countries and regions. And yeah, I saw a lot and also I interviewed a lot of people. And I, I'm glad to share with you that the transaction of energy in China is quite successful. It's something I sometimes I'd like to use the word radical. It's quite radical, but it's quite successful. We got some data. So for example, now, the power generation is over. 1.5 trillion uh 10 trillion, oh sorry, it's not 1. something, it's 10 trillion kilowatts. So it's quite huge. Such kinds of the big power generation amount is not just coming from the coming from the petroleum or coming from the coal or charcoal, etc. And a lot of them coming from the voltavoltaic. So it's coming from the solar energy. So as being a traditional coal user, charcoal user, petroleum user, China make a big step forward compared to India, you know, India got also the same population over 1.5 billion. So in the past, India also invest a lot in order to realize the energy transaction. But because of, I mean, technology or something. That the transition of the energy structure compared to China, India is left behind. Let's look at Southeast Asia. So for Southeast, for example, like the Philippines, Philippines, it owns over 7000 islands, similar to Indonesia, they also have a lot of demand. But how to combine the fossil energy together with the future, for example, the, the wind energy, right on the ocean, the wind energy got a big potential. This is something we need to consider as a big market for us. OK, thank you. Next, we'd like to invite, uh, Mr. Fang from battery. So. So, so, so, so that uh we know that you, you, you, you're focusing on the development of the battery technology. So I would like to ask your question that uh what is your idea about the development of the energy storage, energy storage, and what is your current development in China? And what the comparison between China and the other countries? In perspective of the technology development of the energy storage. OK, so the energy storage technology acquired a big growth in the past 3 years. According to the current data at the end of this year, that we expect to export over 1000 big units of the energy storage. There's over 1000 big scale, big scale energy storage units were exported from China to the rest of the world, to the other country. So that means that all, all, I mean all the industries or the government also that put a big attention to the energy storage technology. So because of what, a lot of things, number one, it could help to reduce the cost of energy, right? Yeah, #2, it could provide a stable power supply. For many countries, power generation is only #1, but #2, but power generation, you generate the power, but it's not stable, right? So the peak, you at the peak and get the value. So the peak supply and value supply, counterbalance them. So the energy storage. That unit could help to balance the two. China already established a complete industry chain. It's very reliable and of course it's quite competitive. It's affordable for many countries, for many players to import the facilities of their energy storage from from China, especially Southeast Asia. And China also a lot of the energy storage unit maker, they also shift their production line from mainland China to Southeast Asia. Indeed. Quite popular, yes. So go to Southeast Asia. Now this has become very popular because of the demand, you know that's the power supply is not very stable in Southeast Asia. So but if they want to build up a big power grid, the investment will be huge. So if they import the power energy storage unit from China, they can save the cost. And they also can control the power cost for household. Yeah, so for Gino, your company, your power generation, and also another one, OK, Dr. Huang, on behalf of the energy storage and Haikian is on behalf of the smart grid, smart energy application, right? So all of you doing something about the physical infrastructure or physical products. So it sounds like you're very, I mean, physical guy. I want to ask you physical guys that today, you know, the power grade, it's become more complicated and sometimes it's out of your way of prediction. So because you see that before we generate the power by burning the coal, charcoal, or burning the petroleum. Now, we have different sources of the power generation, right, from solar, from wind, from everything. So we please explain to us how could we have a better Uh, balancing technology or good application technology to the balance them. Make sure that people could utilize the power more in a more effectively. OK, yes, for human being, now, you know that we also, we, we, we, we live in a different region, right? So some of them live in, uh, like in Southeast Asia or or at the coastline of uh uh of the continent, and some live in the rural area or in the mountainous area. And also, for example, in the northwest part of China, so that the wind is strong in the in the desert or around the desert, right? So, if we supply the power from the south or north or east to the north northwest, it costs a lot of costs a lot by uh transporting. Transporting those power from the east to the west, from south to the north. Uh, and also the inspection. But before we ask the human being to do the inspection along the whole transportation line of the power, and it costs a lot, right? And the symptoms are quite dangerous. For example, in the extreme climate, in the rainstorm, in the snowstorm, if we ask the staff to go climb up. Come up to do the inspection to the power transformer or the transportation line, etc. wow, you know, that's quite dangerous. But now we, we have the AI, we have the robots to do it, right? We have the UAE to do it, the drone to do it. And then we also get the Power generation sources also become greener than before. We have the solar energy. We have the wind energy, etc. so that the whole industry becomes complicated. Therefore, we need to develop the power management system or the control center that is a smart center could allocate the resources, allocate the power resources. Amount the big to the power grid and then make sure that people when they use their solar panel to generate power, they can get the return from them at the same time, they will go to utilize the power conveniently. So yeah, that is really quite great. So what you have mentioned has come to a new topic, which is quite hot right now. We say it collaboration of computing power, electricity power. So that is something we always say in China. So on one hand, For one hand, we use the electricity power to guarantee the computing power. On the other hand, computing power will help the power generation to be smart generated. So for example, the computing power can help the electricity to do the peak shaving. So I'd like to ask you, Daniel. So, um, from 2026, the new computing center. Um, built in China show. At least consume 80% of green electricity. So the electricity should be green electricity. Is that a burden or is that the opportunity? So for for Jino Solar, are you start to sell the solution rather than just sell. Uh, component part is that burden or opportunity? Well, I think that is very inspiring and for us, we are doing that right now. So just like Mr. Wang said. Asia Pacific region. has been very unbalanced in terms of new energy. And AI will be a very good tool to address the imbalance issue. So we know that in China, we have data center. Um, in the eastern part of the country, but the computing power should be built in the western part of China. So for example, we build a center in the western part of China because the energy cost is much lower and the energy is more enriched. So in China, there's a line that draw from the southwest of China to the northeast of China. And in the east part, there are a lot of companies, so consuming power is very strong and they need a lot of computing power. But in the northwest part of China, which has less population, less industry, less demand. But more energy. So right now, for example, we have the ultra high voltage project. So we use the ultra high voltage project to transmit the power from the west of China to the east where the demand is. Yeah, and in the future with AI we can do the peak shaving. We can adjust the Uh, power Yeah, so the energy storage demand is also going up with the computing power center. So I would like to ask Dr. Huang, so you know that the energy storage accounts for over 40% in terms of the facilities relating to AI. So what kind of material do we need for energy storage? For your company because VTR is making new materials. How do you think about the new materials? Well, AIDC. Energy storage comes from two parts. The first one is UPS system to guarantee very stable supply of power generation. And this system has very strict requirements for the volt, for the volt, um, fluctuation. And then with AI technology, and every time when the power fluctuation happens, The AIDC needs the battery to do the instant response. Even within milliseconds to ensure the stable supply of power generation. Otherwise, if we lose the data. Yes, several days ago we saw a lot of LLM shut down because of the fluctuation of the voltage, right, from of the boat. Yes, especially during the 11 when a lot of people are using their technology to buy the products. So it will have very big challenge on the supply of the power. So this requires very Um, very high demand on the new material for the stability. So it has a high requirement on the material. OK, besides lithium, you're also working on R&D of some other materials like the sodium, etc. Will that be used in the AIDC? Yes, of course. Because, The sodium ion battery has very obvious advantages in the power and also for the thermal. Resistance or or a thermal tolerance, but it has disadvantages in terms of energy density. So for energy density, lithium battery is more ideal. But for the sodium ion technology, I believe that with the industry development, it will be, more ideal choice in the future. OK, so could you please tell us about the AIDC development perspective from China and some other area. So we know that in Malaysia or Thailand they all want to build. AIDC and China has most green electricity and most cheap electricity price. But how about the other countries? Yeah, that is different. Computing power collaborates with electricity? Maybe only happens in China because the demand. And the supply. Well, you know, in China, we can use a lot of green electricity for installation. We also invested in Indonesia, and we know that Indonesia is also built the DC, but based on traditional power generation, maybe thermal power or hydropower. But still, This electricity. are different from China because China is not just for satisfying the demand on using electricity, but also needs to reduce the cost and satisfying carbon reduction. Yeah, so in China, You satisfy the demand for using the electricity, but also needs to be cheap electricity and also needs to be clean and green electricity. So China satisfying three goals together. OK, so how about you, Hai Xian? A lot of people said that, um, Silicon Valley started to talk about China, Wullan Tabo. We know that Wullan Tabo is a place that built the first Energy integrated adjustment platform. So are you also making the deployment in Wulan Chabu in the Mongolia of China? So how does that realize the peak shaving? So why do you think that the Silicon Valley people are so fascinated about that? Well, Wulan Tabu is a very typical case about China for computing power collaborating with electricity generation. A lot of AIBC were built in Wulan Tabu, um, essentially have infrastructure. I think that the biggest cost is coming from the electricity power itself. So in Wulan Tabu, it enjoys great solar power and wind power. So here, You can use very low cost of wind power or solar power to support AIDC. But for AIDC, Well, it has its own problems. So for example, uh, for training, it can wait a little bit for for training, but for Interference and reasoning, AIBC needs to do that instantly, right? And maybe not at night, right? Because only in the daytime you have the solar power. And then for the wind power, you cannot predict the wind power. Uh, you need a smart brain to understand about the physics and the geography of this area. And to predict what kind of energy storage it needs to install to ensure the comprehensive electricity cost to be the lowest, yeah, stable, clean, low cost. And uh AI brain should be important because the upstream is uncontrollable and unpredictable and downstream means you should be more ideal and flexible. So you need a smart AI brain to satisfy the needs both upstream and downstream. AI can play a vital role. Well, so why do you always call physical AI brain? Physical AI is that different from AI? Well, we say physical AI. Physical AI means to understand the physical world and physical rule, including meteorology, including the weather, including the economics. OK, physical AI brain needs to understand the physical world. Yeah, it should simulate the world, understand the world rule. OK, Doctor Huang. China is a leader definitely. But there are still a lot of challenges China face. Would you please talk about some pinpoints in China challenges, particularly, for example, like excessive and excessive supply. So when you come to other countries, like Malaysia or Southeast Asia, do you think they can Bypass our challenges. So for example, some challenges only faced by China, but they don't have such challenges. Well, I think that they can learn the lessons China has has encountered. In other countries, maybe they could not make as big infrastructure as China. Yeah, China has very big infrastructure. Yeah, in other countries, maybe. They need to make the plan and layout based on their own development stage. For example, distributed energy system is more suitable in Southeast Asia, and they can use the low cost energy technology. For example, in Southeast Asia, and some least developed area, distributed energy system is more suitable. So we are also promoting that in Indonesia and Morocco. We work together with the local government to build the energy generation plant and to promote the green use of energy and to the local government we can help them to improve the energy usage. OK. When a Chinese factory open another site in Southeast Asia, you work together with the local government and make the distributed energy system. Will that benefit the community? Yeah, of course. Especially in some countries. The resources of green electricity is abundant. And we're also very happy to see that some country make the national program to promote green electricity. So Haitian, you mentioned about Saudi Arabian 2030 vision. Do you make some deployment in Saudi Arabia? Because Saudi Arabia is a traditional petroleum country, but they also have the energy transition goal. Can you talk about Saudi Arabia 2030 vision? Well, A clean energy transition or lower cost energy transition is continued. This trend is continued. And from our side, First of all, China is leading in the technology. And we guarantee that stable supply and lower cost of supply for electricity. And In Saudi Arabia, even the country is traditionally thrived based on the petroleum, but it also has the ambition because In the desert, in the desert, they enjoy greater solar power. They enjoy greater sunlight. And also in Saudi Arabia. They are quite innovative as well. They think that even we have enough fossil energy, but for the future and sustainability, we need to make preparations. So They build AIDC as well. I think Saudi Arabia is quite an amazing country and I know those people have great mindset towards green electricity. And we also see that in some Southeast Asian countries in some Middle East countries. They are interested in our physical AI products. They would like to talk to China. They would like to accept the Chinese technology. I think that in the future, um, these green transition will be globalized. OK, we know that Jinco so far is still just uh suffering from one thing is that the overcapacity of the this industry. So still that the solar power, I mean the solar power, uh, this industry is still in the in the valley, OK, so we don't know what it can go out of this valley. Would you please analyze something about the whole the Asian market. So how the other countries in Southeast Asia sector would avoid this problem like China, right? The photovoltaic, photovoltaic power overcapacity of the production. Yeah, OK, so in order to avoid the overcapacity of the production like in China, I think this question, it must be, I mean, be aware. So number one. So #2 is that this is about the energy transaction, right? So that's, for example, that if there is abundance, there is abundance uh solar energy resources in one place, for example, like in Ningxia. So the government should have a better plan, the plan in advance and then to core the participation from the enterprises step by step. Otherwise, that if everybody joined into that channel and they step in China. Then it will cause a problem overcapacity again. So that even you go to some other like countries and regions, they would not work like China. So for example, like in Pakistan, over 60% of 60% of the agriculture irrigation were moved or driven by the PV by the solar power. Solar power to the agricultural irrigation in Pakistan over 60%. Yes, it's true. You know, Pakistan used to be, I mean, lack of the water, right, water resources, and then the irrigation costs were high, but now they import the solar energy technology from China and then to help them to support the agricultural irrigation. So they they reduced the cost a lot and another successful case study also happened in South Asia, the Philippines. And also that's, I mean, the cost reduced a lot. So I think in the period of the energy transition, so that we we have some focus on the safety, and also we have the market potential and also we have some idea how to avoid the overcapacity. Thank you for all your sharing, it's very wonderful. We know that this is a correct route, is a correct right road for us to do the energy transition in Asia. Even though China is a leader, but the other Asian countries and regions, they use, they work on their own way towards the future and we believed in the year 2030, definitely we'll reach the goal of low carbon. Thank you for your wonderful sharing.

Asia’s shift to digital money has been swift: QR codes, super-apps, and online brokerages have fostered high levels of digital literacy and confidence among consumers. A new phase is now taking shape, as stablecoins reshape cross-border payments, central banks test digital currencies, and payment infrastructure adapts to an agentic future. The promise is faster, cheaper, and more inclusive finance—but it also raises difficult questions around security, fraud, and privacy. Two finance leaders chart the future of digital money, and its impact on consumers, institutions and global markets. 

Zhuoqun Bian, President, Ant Digital Technologies
Benson Wong, Managing Director, Head of Digital, J.P. Morgan Private Bank 
Fang Wang, Executive Editor, Shanghai, Fortune China 

Paying It Forward: What's Next in Digital Finance?

Zhou Qing, I want to start with you. Good afternoon. So and has fundamentally reshaped how people across China and Asia pay over the last 10 years. Looking 10 years ahead, how do you see the very act of paying? evolve? Will it become increasingly more invisible embedded into our daily um routines um until we no longer feel we're making transactions at all. Thanks for the question. As I'm from N Group, payment is the DNA of our business, and I'm very famous to talk about the payment. In the past 10 years, I think everybody left home need to carry a wallet. Then after that maybe 5 or 6 years ago we called it e-wallet. Maybe the phone is the is the e-wallet, but now especially in Hangzhou we when we do the payment we just put down the we we tap the machine then boom it's done. So we can say the payment ah is disappeared. We even don't know. To happen and just to just to process this so it's amazing. So, ah, let's looking forward the next 10 years, ah, we see the payment will be invisible invisible because a lot of AIOT there's a biometrics you can use your phone, watch, even your glasses. So, so it's invisible. And they, uh, it also becomes very intelligent. Maybe your agent pay the do the payment on behalf of you. You have the agent. You authorize the agent. The agent has its own wallet, e-wallet, and they have the credit line. They pay buy the things on the line with the with the authorization from your side and ah. Ah, choose the service. Let's imagine if you, ah, if you go to the, it's good to have a vacation, you needed to book the hotel, you needed to, to reserve the table, you needed to have your ticket, air ticket, the train tickets. A lot of things you need to do by yourself in currently, but after, after that, maybe in the following 5 years or maybe only 1 or 2 years, your agents, your steward agents help you do all the stuff. They match the price. They purchase the service. They do a lot of the broth. They just pick, pick the very reasonable good price. For you, it's a, it's such an amazing for a future. There was before that, ah, I have to say, ah, ah, technology need to improve very quickly. AI and the blockchain makes it happen because it's the payment is instant. It's micro. It's 24 24/7 7 days and I think AI is your agent. They, they performed all the activities on behalf of you, but still need a super ledger which is blockchain. They, they record the transaction. Even the transaction is very micro, very ancient. They record on the. on the ladder and I think the infra is AI and blockchain is the info for future payment. That's a very exciting um future we're looking at, but we will come back to Agentic commerce in a while. But I want to return to Benson. Um, you at JPMorgan Private Bank, um, you serve clients who Uh, are managing complex multi-generational wealth across borders. In that environment, how do you see AI augmenting a private banker and where do you draw the line that ensures the final relationship with your clients remains deeply human? Great, that's a great question. And, and firstly, thank you for the opportunity to be here. I, I couldn't agree more with what Duo Chuan had said in relation to AI in the context of payments and I draw the analogy if we look at and I think with technology 10 years is really far. I would just say in however cycles and events. I think we're seeing a change in private banking or frankly investments in general that has historically been more episodic, right, like unique events to something more continuous and integrated in your day to day. So historically you would just check your investments once in a while, maybe talk to your private banker once a month. Now I fully agree that things have to be more continuous. I also think that the accessing of this information is likely gonna be moving away from an atlas world and obviously products are becoming more commoditized in terms of financial products. Fully agree with the trajectory of the, the direction of where this industry is going. With that being said, I think as it pertains to private banking, where we look at differentiation, which I'll come back to why AI can't or would in the context of integration is in private banking. We're differentiated not if we're just pushing a product. If you're just pushing a product, pushing a specific thing, you're being very transactional and that's very commoditized. I think differentiation we're looking at as a business model is one where the answers are not clear cut. To the point about you have a large sale, to the point that you have complex situations, you have succession planning, these are all Trust, judgment, and access that has not been able to be replicated with technology, if you will. And so they would look at this is with AI and relationship management advisors. I don't think it's actually a replacement or displacement of it. I think it's a redistribution of labor. I think what ends up happening is that where it comes to identifying what is the best solution when it comes to thought leadership, providing access, knowing where to provide that service, that's something where that has to be something where the human gets involved. I think then that AI can help the prep work in gathering on the side before there. I also would think that just to not to be remiss, I actually do believe that AI can be in the front facing the client alongside the advisor. We actually at JPMorgan have invested and have rolled out a lot of really great directed client AI capabilities that don't have human in the middle that are reg approved. But I think the important part here is that where our clients demand something that is speed, convenient, low stake information. We should definitely let them deal with AI because that actually has served their benefit where there's trust, judgment, complexity, then those things should definitely be something enabled through digital and managed by a human by a trusted advisor in that contract. It sounds to me that AI is not replacing trust, it's just reallocating it. So, uh, Zhou Qing, let me come back to you, um, more on agentic commerce, uh, that is coming to us. So as AI agents, um, are not just doing recommending, uh, products, um, services. To us, uh, they start to actually purchase, book and pay on our behalf. I wonder what does this mean to merchants and banks, uh, what kind of preparation and technology they have to deploy so that they will eventually one day start to deal with algorithms as their counterparts. Ah, it's a, it's a good question. Um, we are talking about economy, agentic economy, we have to say, ah, actually we are experienced that just like I mentioned in the we are looking forward the the payment may be the payment between the agent agents. We call the agentic payment. Ah, the, the, it's the version we are experienced, but ecos is still needed to catch up or I have to say that the eco ecos had to be replicated this kind of changes. And then when we talk about the ecos, we have to to to reference to ah financial institutions, financial systems, compliance and the regulator and enterprises. All those stakeholders are the ecos participants. So, ah, to from ah from ah a financial institution perspective. Ah, when we initiate the transaction, we have to do the KYC, know your clients, but in the, ah, aging, aging economy, we have to say you need to know your agents. Who's the agent you you you belong to or you get ah properly authorized or you, you, when you, when the agent does things in your mouth, who takes the responsibility. So all these things. to from human to agent. So the technology, especially for new new new agents, 24 hours, 1010 24 hours in the 7 days instant, all the infra need to be improved or rebuilt. The in the in the past few years, all the infra are built for humans, but looking forward. All the infra needs to be rebuilt or enhanced to aging because all the participants may be human, may be aging. You need to know to your to know your agents much more than know your customers. I think it is very important. Technology may technology needs to provide this kind of service to the to the financial institution and the regulatory systems. I said from the it's it's from the financial perspective, but from the enterprises perspective, ah, every company, every business goes to the go to the place that your customer spend the time. 10 years ago maybe website and 5 years ago maybe app. Now you may go to the aging marketplace. So from end of end group or NDT we provided this kind of service to to bring the tech to bring the enterprises the know-how, the skills into Agentic service that agents can find your service through agent marketplace and how to skillize or agentize your business into agent and could be find through the market. So I think it's very important from from from the enterprises prospective they need. to join this kind of the innovation and skills life. They are know-how skills life, their database and make the business into agents and could be find easily find friendly find by other agents. OK, so, ah, Ben, you run a very tight ship on compliance and security, um. So how do you think about AI agents inside that parameter? Um, are AI agents coming to high value payments too? I, um, I, I, I don't know if there's any regulators here, but I just wanna say yes I do run a tight ship, um, but I think, I think the reality of it is that it comes to agents we're all moving away from the pilot phase, so I think a lot of organizations do have some sort of agentech workflow agents if you will, but I think at the end of the day we've never or I personally have never come across a situation where the technology of an agent failed us or rather led to an undesirable outcome. I think at the end of the day it's always around the operating model, the processes, and the compliance, the controls, if you will, and I think the challenge that with Agentech workflows where it's vastly different is if you ask an agent a harness, whatever it is, you ask it an information seeking question. If you answer wrongly, it's not good, but you have an embarrassing moment. If you don't get agentic workflows correct, there are much more vastly scaled impact as that way. And I think that's something at JPMorgan, which we're very intentional about, which is the tone from up top. And I don't mean just the culture of embedding AI. I think that's a given. I think it's actually our intentionality as it pertains to making sure that our infrastructure and processes allow for it. So again, when I use the word infrastructure, people tend to talk about technical infrastructure, data infrastructure. Obviously data has to be clean. Data needs to be in one resort. All those things are given. But even simple things like thinking about, OK, you have 10 different workflows. One of them is agentic, 2 of them are sort of not agentic, semi-aggentic, etc. The whole ecosystem that was mentioned before falls behind and so there's an importance for us to not only get the technology right. The orchestration right and as mentioned before, the governance look, protecting our clients, protecting our clients' wealth, protecting our clients' data is paramount, and I think it's very important that in a gente world all practices of here's a workflow, approve it needs to go away. We're very intentional to have either hired or retrained anyone from legal risk compliance to our technologists to our operations to have a. Workflow by design in all their DNA. So yes, it's automated, but is it explainable? Can you actually be audited? Can you actually explain it? These are all things we've actually gone back. So I think in that context, agentic payment is a very, very important part, but I think it's the journey to help us get to something as high value. All these different steps are things we've done in place to help position ourselves to get there. Mhm. So it sounds to me that uh BNS is. the roads, but Benson JPMorgan is more mindful of the traffic lights. So talking about roads, we're changing gear a little bit. So and has long championed financial inclusion using technology to bring financial services to those previously outside the financial system. In the age of AI, do you see these more technological tools narrowing the access. Um, gap further or will, um, actually, um, technology as some people are worried, uh, actually widen the gap. I think technology is definitely um bridge the gap because yes just as you mentioned, inclusive is our DNA of our business as well and you can imagine that especially JPMorgan is quite it is a private bank and I don't think a lot of people can have their service. Ah, I don't, I cannot say it's expensive, it's reasonable, but a genetic economy aging AI can make this kind of service much more inclusive, much more accessible to to to to people. They are not so wealth, they are, but they still need this kind of service, financial service, insurance service, hair hair care, legal service. They now they can have their agents. They can, they can let their agents uh find the proper service in a very efficient way. Would it be costly for each of us to get an agent? Uh, and I cannot say it's, it's reasonable or less expensive. Because you, you can have your, your service by the agents through the agents. Ah, maybe, maybe in the traditional ways, the service may cost thousands of dollars in a few weeks, in a few weeks, and the result is good. But, ah, but I think normal people maybe not they cannot afford that. They just needed the opinion. They need to just need the information. They just needed the service they can affordable. I think AI can do that. I think so the technology before that. As quite a bridge the difference, bridge the, the, the, the gap. It's it's, it's, we can see, uh, AI and the kind of the, the technology, uh, bring the service, bring the financial services to the normal people. When will the moment arrive when each of us will have our own agent doing all the banking and buying and purchasing and transaction for us? When do you see that day coming? I think it is as soon as possible. I, I believe that. So Benson, AI can make sophisticated insights available to more people, which is another sort of aspect of uh inclusion. But JPMorgan is a private bank. Um, how do you use AI to broaden access without diluting the quality of your service? Thank you. And, and I do wanna, I would agree that our fees are also very reasonable. So, so thank you for that. I I, I think there's a couple of different things. I, I like the analogy, and, and I've always said this before, where the technology is always gonna progress and it should. Innovation should never stop in that way. I think the intentionality around the usage of that technology, how we guard around it is what's really key here. And so for example, a lot of times private equity is something that used to be lack of access. Now it's commoditized, but that doesn't mean that everyone should buy private equity without understanding the checks and balance suitability in that way. And I think as it pertains to financial inclusion, at least from a private bank perspective, that hasn't changed our mentality in that way there. I think the way we look at inclusion as it pertains to clients who need private banking levels of service, I think we've leveraged AI and digital and technology to actually widen people who can engage with us as early as possible. So historically in a lot of private banks, what ends up happening is you have to actually become a client before you get access to a lot of information, get to see what it's like. We've actually recently launched a prospect portal which actually allows people who are not clients yet to actually start having access to our thought leadership, to actually start seeing what it's like in terms of our capabilities, our advice, understanding their portfolio, and that's two things that again for those who want a private bank, they can experience the JPMorgan experience, but equally for those who are not yet but soon to be on their liquidity journey, it's a great access point. I think the second thing I would also say is. The traditional private bank context is you have multi-generational wealth, you have a single decision maker, and usually that single decision maker decides everything. I think with technology and AI, I think the other people and decision makers around that generational wealth, be it the next gen, etc. will have better access. Transparency and ability to get started earlier on the way there. And sorry, last but not least, I would also say that the cost of providing these type of services is going down even though the human element is still there. And so it does allow us to venture to an economic threshold that might be lower than what currently is there, which again includes includes or rather promotes inclusion, but again still ensuring the right guardrails and the right services for our client segments. So the the product you just mentioned, it's like a. Uh, we don't need to be, uh, like ultra high net, uh, I, I think, um, individuals to enjoy absolutely. I think it's, uh, I think it's also by invite only, but I think it's one of those things where instead of relying in the old school pitchbook PowerPoints, PDFs, there's a digital way for people to engage and know what feels what it's like to be a JPMorgan private bank client. I think that's really what people expect nowadays, right? So, uh, whether in the future we'll be dealing with agents or human bankers. I think the task ahead is to build a system that is faster, smarter, more inclusive without losing sight of what makes finance work in the first place, which is trust. Thank you very much. Thank you for this wonderful and insightful conversation. Thank you.

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