This was a podcast conversation between columnist Ross Douthat and Helen Andrews and Leah Libresco Sargeant, two women he describes as “conservative writers, both critics of feminism, … with different views of what a right-wing politics of gender should look like.”

In the days since the piece gained attention and generated blowback, its headline has changed to “Did liberal feminism ruin the workplace?” and some of my favorite women writers have weighed in on what is its outlandish premise. A few responses so far:

– From Reshma Saujani, founder of Moms First: “No, women didn’t ruin the workplace. We just demanded it be fixed.”

– “Everybody panic! The workplace has become too ‘feminized,” from Arwa Mahdawi at the Guardian

– And a fitting, viral post on Threads: “I see your, ‘Did women ruin the workplace? And raise you one ‘Did men ruin the entire world?'”

Reading or listening to the NYT conversation, it quickly becomes apparent how thin of an argument is being debated. The kinds of questions being asked are not serious ones that deserve an hourlong roundtable, like “Are women the problem with wokeness?” and “What is toxic femininity?”

There are some false assumptions worth pointing out. One that stood out to me was this exchange:

Andrews: “It’s correct that we have not yet had a female president. On the other hand, it’s also true that the White House staff was 60% female under President Biden. So does the one prove definitively that we don’t live in a feminine society, or does the other prove that we do?”

Sargeant: “It’s always the junior levels that are a lot more female-tilted, and they’re moving gradually up, so you can expect that trend to continue.”

If anything, over recent years, we’ve learned that we definitely cannot expect that trend to continue. For every moment of progress, there’s backlash. Women moving gradually up in the workforce until we reach the top is anything but guaranteed. Women are very much still the exception among Fortune 500 CEOs, and a female-dominated workforce in the executive branch clearly does not mean a woman is any closer to winning the White House. What’s more, after years of post-pandemic gains, women are leaving the labor force again amid the collapse of workplace flexibility.

But one takeaway from this conversation is that we need to learn how to have it. Conservative women are a growing force in society—just look at the power of the MAHA movement or the rise of Erika Kirk. This kind of thought is influencing the future of the country. It’s satisfying to laugh at a silly headline, but it doesn’t get us anywhere. If a traditional feminist thinker—not a critic of feminism—had been part of this conversation, it would have been far more productive.

So, no, women didn’t ruin the workplace. The rise of working women over several decades, however, has certainly changed the workplace. Exactly how is a conversation worth having, hopefully with better framing—and more diversity of thought—next time.

Emma Hinchliffe
emma.hinchliffe@fortune.com

The Most Powerful Women Daily newsletter is Fortune’s daily briefing for and about the women leading the business world. Subscribe here.

ALSO IN THE HEADLINES

The FDA removes safety warnings from hormone treatments for menopause. Treatments like HRT have carried "black box" warnings for years. Many women's health advocates argued that the warnings were based in flawed science. The FDA's commissioner says change will stop "the fear machine steering women away from this life-changing, even lifesaving treatment." NPR

What happens after Taylor Swift chooses your engagement ring? Jewelry designer Kindred Lubeck was already popular, but her inventory over $30,000 had been sitting. Then her most expensive pieces sold out immediately. WSJ

The International Olympic Committee may ban transgender women athletes. The IOC's president has promised to "protect the female category" at the Olympics, and is moving toward a blanket ban. Most decisions on this issue so far had been handled by individual sporting governance bodies. Guardian

ON MY RADAR

What did men do to deserve this? New Yorker

Who is the trad husband? Vox

The young women grappling with ALS New York Times

PARTING WORDS

"There’s part of me that stepped up, grabbed the microphone, and was like, 'Okay, I know what I’m doing here.'"

— Hilary Duff on her long-awaited return to pop music