Sir Tim Berners-Lee, Co-founder and Chief Technology Officer, Inrupt
John Bruce, Co-founder and CEO, Inrupt
In conversation with: David Meyer, FORTUNE

Fortune Global Forum 2021: A course correction for the web

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that man is certain burdens lee and he's on a mission to tame the web and give people greater control over their private information. So tim and john Bruce are co founders of in Russia. They join us now to talk about how they plan to make that happen. Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here and remind us of the audience. If you want to pose any questions to our illustrious guests, please drop them into chat and there will be relayed to me, uh, and I'll ask them and hopefully we can have a little time for Q and A at the end as well. Um, tim you invented the weather is a profoundly egalitarian platform open to everyone. You didn't patent for technology, but you're not happy with how it turned out. Tell us more about why that is. Well, initially it seemed to be, you know, anybody looking at the web early on people to see, oh, it's great. You can find all kinds of stuff on it and you can have your own website. So initially it was a very uh it was a place where people felt enabled. Uh So the bloggers here and so on uh Generally emphasised that that feeling that the web it's something where I can contribute and I can benefit from it and there was great value. Uh but also but now 30 years later uh obviously go to anybody in the streets and ask them what do they think about the weapon they have but they'll have mixed feelings about it. They'll they'll find actually that worry that what people see on the web is suspected by an algorithm. They're worried that people with the web is persuading people to vote for for parties that actually don't aren't an investment interest and so on. So uh not so so hence the idea of a medical of course correction. Can we get it back? Pick it up, move it over. So let's going back towards that very enabling positive place where seemed originally to be headed. Mhm. So it's really a lot of it comes down to personal agency I suppose which in these days is represented by data uh in in many ways. So that's where solid you're, I was going to say new technology, it's about five years old now, isn't it? That's where it comes in and the company that you and john have founded to commercialize it. Um what is solid? It's not like it's web some people call it web three or web done right. It's uh solid technically it's a protocol but it still uses http and so uses sort of euros and things with the revenues. But uh solid is technology to adding more standards to make the more powerful. It has been a global single sign on uh so that any any face involved in solid you can log in with the account from anywhere in solid uh access control. So you can share anything with nobody or with anything basically socially. What it does is it gives you puts you in complete control of your data. It does that. But actually meaning that data to be stored in solid pods that you control personal online data stalls and when you have your data stored in your solid pod, then the app is separate. So that has to ask where you want your data store. They have to ask permission to to to help you in your life buying back in the data. So if you like it's flipping the web the right way up is putting people back in control of their lives and their data in particular. Okay. How is this going to take off john uh, is there something that you're going to try and launch killer apps hole or what? Well, it's actually taken off now. David. Uh, I mean for as much utility that we've talked about so far for the user being more empowered as a consequence of having their data available to them. There's as much value, one could argue as much, maybe more for organizations that want to service those users. So what we found when we're excited to find it is that organizations and governments are mobilizing to deploy the technology and they're taking to as readily as end users actually. So, so the precursor to adoption I think is massive organizations and governments deploying it for the citizens and consumers. Really innovative apps to give those users back, not just control over their data, but the, but the power and the potency of the applications that can be now built for them to service them. So we're experiencing it now. I mean this is the sort of thing that uses themselves will be aware of or is it really down to the organization that's deploying it? And if people aren't aware of it, when would they become aware of it? Well, step one, massive organizations are deploying it for the benefit of their users. The users don't necessarily know that what they are now enjoying as a world of solid. They just experience a new way to have a relationship with the Principal organization. In due course they'll be approached with other applications and and they'll it'll be pointed out to them consequence of having now the data available, they can do new things new and exciting things. And I think at that juncture they realize that the web they're experiencing isn't the web that they're getting today. So can you get some tangible examples of how this is being used today? Surely. Yeah, I mean, having mentioned governments two or three times, I will tell you that in the public domain, which is to say those governments that have gone public on the declaration of commitment. We've got uh Sweden most recently have shown how individual citizens of Sweden will be able to apply for a job using solid. Um We've also had victims of domestic abuse that down in latin America as a project where we intend to roll that up very soon. But the the most exciting government I think is the work that's being undertaken in flanders, where we announced with Minister President Jan Jambon in flanders a couple of weeks ago that every citizen in flanders, some 6.5 million people will be getting this technology not just to be serviced by their government in terms of social services but also by organizations. So large scale cos influences and are mobilizing around the technology to service those self same citizens. So we believe we're underway. So what are the benefits to organizations that do run this out? So what do they get that? They can't get with other data technologies that are on the market today? Well in fact a lot of organizations if you're trying to sell peace or you're trying to sell shoes uh it's very useful to know the preferences of the user. So when the user logs in the user logs in with social network you get their name, you get their photos. Uh But what you want if you're selling the shoes you want the shoes that they bought. You want the shoe size in particular. Uh So you could make a website which stores use the records for every person who buys shoes and stores issues shoe size. But then you have all the GDP our problems. Uh and you've got the just the the weight of having the responsibility for all that user data. And your your board tell you, please don't, no, please don't. Uh store user data if you if you can avoid it. So, and they say, okay, well people are logging the solid and we'll store the app will store their suicide in that sorry pops. And they can use you can see it, They can be told that they're already all the gpr boxes are checked. So we are happy that user is happy the user actually is enabled. Because any shoe store, if everybody starts doing this, they can they can go and see all our competitors. And because they have a solid part which has just got the shoe size in it. Suddenly all the shoe shopping becomes simpler and easier and it all happens with them being control. And actually the shoe company, we prefer to make sure it's not, our business is not in storing user data. So actually it's a huge relief. Yeah, they can get what they said. I'm sorry. I think the principle can describe somewhere in organizations don't necessarily, or at all want your data. They just want to be guaranteed. They can have access to it whenever they need it. And that's where the user permission comes in. So organizations get great value because they are no longer burdened by your data. They can stick to the core competency. Uh, as as I think potently they, it inverts somewhat the consumption model as well. We're in organizations today. They as best they can. They design materials or products, they make them available to the kind of constituents they hope would want to buy them. And it's all very speculative. It's already done on best judgment basis. Well, this inverts that consumption model now a user can describe more explicitly what they want when they want it. In fact how much they want to pay for it and it strips out a lot of the economic waste that organisations usually suffer. It also sounds like this is dovetailing quite nicely with regulatory changes that we've seen certainly in europe, I mean, till you've mentioned the G. D. P. R. A couple of times. They're also we're starting to see antitrust regulators seeing data as an issue. Um, and and data has has acquired in in both an allure and a certain toxicity recently. I mean, do you think that solid uh and interrupt are benefiting from this trend? I think the two goes together very well. The zeitgeist is that there is a backlash among people that they want to benefit from their data and they want to control their data. And so on one side you see technology like Solid which actually allows them to technically. And on the other side you see legislation like GDP are you see local regulations, You see terms and conditions changes. You see companies moving their positions dramatically to make announcements that you will actually be able to get your data. And so your company's working towards using common standards so the data can be exchanged between between different companies and so on. So if you like it's a bit of a big backlash in a way on behalf of the whole community against the system of exploitation towards one of empowerment. Mhm. Do you see yourself as in competition with the big the big tech firms against against whom the spatula has manifested? I don't think so. Really? Uh strategic reasons. One is we're building a system which has people and Sanders will be able to go and use solid base systems. They will be able to do all kinds of things, not just uh not just take photographs and share them, they will be able to uh wouldn't manage meetings, there are all kinds of different solid apps. Now if you're if your company is a huge social network and what you do is just get people to share photographs and like photographs. Well that's okay. Uh people will keep using that for a bit but then after a while they may find the solidarity our most sophisticated maybe the people will find that. Yeah, I'll use the big social networks for sharing my apps. My foot is for just for both saying about where I've been on the beach. But when it comes to sharing photos from, for the project that I'm doing my design work or where I'm meeting or I'm meeting with my nonprofit and I'm uh, I'm sharing materials with other people and actually I need Solid because actually I need to with solid, I can, I can sharing photos actually, I can share workspaces of all kinds of artwork I've used and stuff I've drawn. And so, uh, you know, solid, it's becoming a very much richer. So the division that solid becomes a very rich space image. You can do anything with anything. It's not just the lighting things, you can actually do anything with anything. And in terms of the, the ease of use, um, I'm thinking about how these world gardens have arisen over time. A lot of that has been convenience, frankly. You know, the old days where things were much more driven people having personal websites and so on that that required more effort. Um, even if it may have been rewarding in many more ways, uh, do you think that solid provides the same level of convenience that you know, people won't see any barrier to entry as it were? Absolutely. If you think about setting up your own website, if you want to set up your own website to do to share stuff, well in principle, you need to set up a whole user base for all your friends. You know, you interest from that from scratch and then you need to build access control system to put into your web server. Okay, so solid already because solid then if you get a solid pod at all, that's been done so solid because it does the access control because it uses and you can share things with anybody who has a solid account. You can immediately share. You take it, you fall over, you take a picture of your need, You can share it with your doctor, okay? And you can share it with your cousin as well and you can share your medical stuff with your cousin as well as your daughter. So that sort of power. So yes because he's got that sort of power when you make it, when you use the website. Yes, it's very powerful. You don't have to write all that code. Mhm. Um You introduced uh an enterprise version I think late last year. If I'm not mistaken, what sort of interest have you seen from the private sex? Uh I wouldn't say overwhelming because that implies that we don't know what to do with it, but suffice to say we've had a massive amount of interest uh across europe in particular actually, so their credit. Uh major organizations have approached us to say, look, this technology sounds like it could unlock a lot of our opportunity here. We've been hidebound by the way. The data's got us down from cul de sacs and huge data lakes and silos. And and yet this technology sounds like it might be an unleashing technology. How do we evaluate it? And actually, without any candidly, without any marketing of sales resource on our part, we found were full up. If you will, with projects to contend with, we're adding more capacity, I will I will just add in a side in terms of financing that we're raising to add more capacity, more resources, more developers, etcetera. But uh I think it's to the credit again, of european corporations, they found their way to us and the projects are underway. Uh huh. Um, do you think that we'll start to see big tech firms willingly integrate with Solid at some point? Uh have there been any discussions, any surreptitious discussions about this or why they are taking a wait and see approach? Uh, you know, big tech is smart, it's well resourced and it's adaptive and it knows that unless you adapt, you die your the way of the dinosaurs. So suffice to say that while there's been some fairly healthy and measurable conversations with with Big check, some of it's gone quite public actually. There was an announcement but most recently by Apple with google and facebook about a specific project called DTP and they were kind enough to include solid and interrupt in particular. So, so the notion is you can download your data from any of them, put them in your solid pod and it gives you it gives you release from those big data silos, if you're looking fresh. Um, so yeah, I mean big Tech, a big Tech, very smart people. Well resourced, very adaptive. I wouldn't be a total surprise. Where are your audience to find that they moved forward? Okay. Um returning to the e services side, What's going on in flanders and so on. How much of an effect has the pandemic had on that? Because if I think about that, I think well on the one hand, virtual has clear advantages that have become very, very obvious during the pandemic. On the other hand, public coffers are drained by the effects of the pandemic. What sort of effect have you seen on the desire to build up the services in the last year? Oh, in the context of our project in flanders, it's actually an embedded component within their economic revival package post pandemic. I mean, they see this the way of liberating the economy and a whole raft of ways and I think Sweden to actually, so, so I don't know that there was much we could do through the pandemic. The in expectation there'll be another one. There's things we can do, but we'll certainly part of an economic resurgence opportunity for countries. Okay, well, thank you very very much for your for your time for coming and sharing this information with us. It's been fascinating. I'm I'm very much looking forward to seeing how solid pans out and thanks so much for joining us.