In a wide-ranging conversation, Nigel Farage reflects on the U.S.-U.K. relationship and the political forces reshaping the U.K., Europe, and global markets. 
Nigel Farage, Member of Parliament of the United Kingdom, Leader of Reform U.K. 

In conversation with: Kamal Ahmed, Executive Editorial Director, Fortune UK and Europe

A View From London

Conferences

Raj, for those who don't know, is a phenomenon in the United Kingdom. He is someone who has led many, many new debates in the United Kingdom about the type of politics that he wants to see and. Through many arguments and discussions, he's actually built a party that is now leading the polls in the United Kingdom, which many people would never have predicted even 2 or 3 years ago. So Mr. Farage, please do come onto the stage to join Fortune. Thank you very much. shake hands and honorable. So Nigel, yeah, or Mr. Farage, I'm shook hands with the BBC. How about that? The old BBC, the old BBC. So I'm gonna call you Mr. Farage, quite rightly, quite rightly, quite rightly, don't do that. So, well, OK, Nigel, you, you and I have spoken many, many times. I've been a journalist in the UK for, for many decades, as long as you've been a politician, almost, uh, as long. But give us first, um, your overview of er the speech, we've heard from Kellyanne particularly, who's obviously very, very supportive of what Trump um is doing. As I made clear in the opening comments, there isn't just one view from Europe, and I think we can sometimes, when we're looking at that global footprint, we can sometimes think from Europe there is one point of view, which is we don't like Donald Trump very much. You have a very different point of view, and I think it'd be useful to share that at the kick-off. Yeah, well I mean first things first, thank you to our hosts. Happy birthday, happy 250th, you were the first Brexit in the world. When you broke away from us and you've gone on to become the richest and most powerful country on Earth, just goes to show the nation state is a better building block than any artificial globalist structure that some at Davos have dreamt of for decades. There isn't one view from Europe, you're right. And perhaps I've been a big part of that. I think The Brexit vote The United Kingdom saying no, we don't want any part of effectively government by bureaucrats that we can't hire, we can't fire, has led to big political changes. So you've now got the eastern parts of the European Union. Hungary, Poland, very distinctive national voices, Denmark itself increasingly taking views that are very different to the so-called consensus in Brussels. So no, there isn't one single view that comes from Europe and and and Brexit has changed the architecture. I, I, I think of European politics in many, many ways. What did I think of the speech? Well, it's nice to get a tip that the stock market's going to double, isn't it? I've just bought some call options off the back of it, um. I mean, the US, the US economy is just phenomenal. And if we really are looking at Q4 growth at 5%, I mean come on, these are numbers we expect from third world countries as they rapidly develop. They're they're they're mind blowing numbers. Um, our growth in the United Kingdom for Q4 will be 0.2%, maybe 0.31% if we're very, very lucky, and we'll call that a good day. So America is powering ahead and there's one statistic that I find amazing. At the time of the global financial crisis, the size of the American economy was identical to the size of the eurozone, and here we are 16 years later, and it's double the size of the Eurozone. So America is getting some things right economically that Europe is getting wrong, and I think at the center of this is the debate about energy. Now, you know, Trump railed against wind turbines and they, they killed the birds and they cost $1000 a spin and all of that, but actually, Europe has gone down this route towards net zero. Davos, of course. Has been encouraging Western countries to go down this route for decades now. America had the shale gas revolution. They've gone from being an energy importer to an energy exporter, and just to think, this week last year when there was no wind blowing across the UK, no sun for solar, we were importing up to 25% of our electricity every day at inflated prices from Norway and elsewhere. So on the economy. There's no argument. America's doing great, and he spoke about that, and he wasn't. He wasn't exactly modest when it came to his economic achievements, but they're undeniable. The second half of the speech is more difficult. From a NATO perspective. And I want to say this, I have believed since I first discussed it with him in 2016. In the campaign, I've believed all the way through that Trump would be a very good thing for NATO. And I think in many ways he has been a very good thing for NATO. You know, he's he's bullied NATO countries into upping their spending commitments even before the Ukrainian invasion by Russia, which happened a few years ago. Even in that first term, he was pushing and actually he's right. Secretary Generals of NATO like Donald Trump, he's getting, he's getting Europe to wake up to the fact that it needs to do something. And also it's waking up to the fact that the European Union itself is just never going to get defense right. So on that NATO stuff, on that further push today, I agreed with all of it. I agreed with him saying that America had borne a very heavy burden, but there was one thing that he did say that I have to take issue with. He said NATO have never given us anything back, and I would object to that politely by saying this. When the decision was made to go into Afghanistan, we went in with America and a coalition of the willing. We stayed by America for the whole 20 years. We proportionately spent the same money as America. We lost the same number of lives as America pro rata, and the same applies actually to Denmark and other countries too, so it's not quite fair. Yet, in money terms, America's provided more. In terms of surveillance equipment, etc. America still provides more, but we have when it comes to honoring our commitments to America more than done our bit in terms of action over the last 20 years. So I, I want to make that point very, very clear, and I'm a big fan of the president, I'm a friend of the President, but I think it's right to say that friends can disagree. What do you feel? Nigel, about building on that, about the comments about Greenland, and although he can make all the security arguments, he can even make economic arguments, I didn't hear once in that speech anything about self-determination and democracy, and that is why I think you have seen such a direct. And pretty aggressive for the European Union. Macron talking about a world without rules. You've got the Belgian PM Bart de Weer warning against not being a miserable slave of America. You've got the strength of that response because of an apparent lack of respect for democracy. Look, you know, I mean, first things first, I'm delighted that Trump and now Scott Bessant have done everything they can to torpedo. The terrible deal that would threaten the American base of Diego Garcia, I do want to say that, Diego Garcia is the most important American base in the world outside of the American mainland, the British government, Ironically, are gonna pay to give away what is ours, and there's no doubt there will be Chinese spies and all the rest of it, over that American base, so I'm delighted with that. On Greenland, I have no doubt, That the world would be a better, more secure place if a strong America was in Greenland because of the geopolitics of the High North, because of the retreating ice caps, and because of the continued expansionism of Russian icebreakers, of, of Chinese investment. So yes, would America owning Greenland be better for the world in terms of safety and stronger for NATO? It would, however, If you believe in Brexit, And if you believe in celebrating America's 250th birthday, if you believe in the nation states and not globalist structures, you believe in sovereignty. And if you believe in sovereignty, you believe in the principle of national self-determination. That's what you guys fought the British for, your right of national self-determination, and you won. So I agree strategically with the arguments that he makes. Although many say that you can do that through NATO. There is no reason for America to own Greenland because it is the most powerful force in NATO, and NATO is able to call the shots in Greenland. But you can understand America saying, look, if you want us to, if you want us to make the whole place a strong military. Base, you know, we need a bit more than just pumping money in now. Look, you know what he did say. So look, 0.1 you must respect the rights and views of the Greenlanders because that is what national self-determination is and that's a key part for those of us at Davos that are fighting the globalists, belief in national self-determination is at the root of what people like me, albeit the minority here, believe in. So I think that's really, really important. Tell us a little bit about um reform, for many people here, some people will know, of course, the story of what's happened with reform in the United Kingdom, you're ahead in the polls, er many people predict that you will be the next Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Um, what is the reform phenomenon? What lessons does it have for the audiences in Davos? So Americans ask me, what's happening? And I say, well, think of this, you've had the Democrats and the Republicans for years, a two party system. Yeah, sure, the Libertarians run, the Greens run, they get 1.5% or 2% or whatever they get. We have been since the end of World War One, it's either been Labour or Conservative. And what happened is those two parties became so similar. There wasn't much to choose, and it left a very big gap in the political market. If I was American. I would have gone for the open primary system. And try to take over the Conservative Party. That's what Trump did with the Republicans. You can't do that in Britain. There are no open primaries. The Conservative Party and Labour Party are like sort of private members' clubs, and they certainly wouldn't let me in, I can tell you. So we've had to do it on our own, and the fact that reform is now. An average of 10 points ahead in the polls. We've led the last 200 opinion polls. It's a bit like Ross Perot's party becoming the biggest in America. And remember, our electoral system is the same as yours. It's designed to be two party politics, so it is a complete phenomenon, and it represents, number one, the sameness of the two parties. Number 2, disenchantment. With politics not delivering, with promises not being kept, and number 3, and I'm sad to say this. But it represents a Britain that is in very serious decline. Economic decline, social decline, uh even moral decline in many ways in knowing the difference between right and wrong, and so people are desperate for something different. And with me, well, I mean, not everyone loves me, I mean people love me, they hate me, that's fine. But with me, I've been around for decades, they know who I am, they know that I'm pretty consistent, they know that I'm pretty determined, they know that I won't bend or wave, they know that I can't be bribed, they know that I can't be bullied. So they're looking, they're looking for a government, for a party that'll give a government that'll bring radical change to the United Kingdom. And if we don't get radical change to the United Kingdom, I shudder to think where we're gonna be in a few years' time. Already we've got. About a quarter of a million British people deserting the country every year. Young entrepreneurs, our highest taxpayers, many of our best businesses just fleeing the country. So we, you know, we're here, we're here, we're fighting to bring a radical turnaround in, in, in Britain's fortunes, and we've plugged the gap, we've filled the gap, albeit there could be a long way to go till the next election, but I, I mean honestly. I think we've got every chance of winning the next election. I really do. Did you ever think that you would be here? You have been very critical of Davos. You've been very critical of the discussions that go on here. I've been coming to Davos for 16 years, Nigel, and, and, uh, there you are. I, I've, I've not seen a tension, a geographical tension between Europe and the USA as we have here, at least by amongst the European establishment and the USA as we've seen this year. What changed? Your mind to bring you here because in the end you are speaking, whatever your view of Davos to some very significant business leaders, the chief executives of the most powerful, the most successful businesses in the world are here in Davos. They believe it's worthwhile. Isn't it simply rude, if I could put it like that, to criticize the fact that businesses come here to discuss the best way to think about the future. Well, two points to make on that. Number one, just because I've turned up in Davos doesn't mean I've gone native, you know, doesn't mean I've changed the views that I've had for decades. And don't forget I went to the, I was a member of the European Parliament for over 20 years. I never changed one little bit. I mean, actually being here today walking around, it feels a bit like being back in Brussels pre-Brexit. So, so you know, it's a very similar kind of vibe, not so much in USA House, of course, I assure you. Is it rude Is it rude to say to the biggest companies in the world who don't give a damn about the nation state, who don't give a damn about borders, who have encouraged us for decades to open up to unlimited immigration, regardless of cultural consequences, who've encouraged us to go for net zero, so we've deindustrialized and seen India and China take our steel making and much else. Uh, is it rude? To mention the fact that the high regulatory model that these people pursued through the European Union made life impossible for small and medium sized businesses to come through and challenge because of the barriers to entry of cost and regulation in the market. Is it rude of me to come here and meet those firms and say to them, my country's been craven to you for decades, that is about to end. It's ended with America, it's ended with Malay of Argentina, so my message to those big businesses is yes we'll work with you, yes we'll cooperate with you. We will not be dictated to by you, we will not be told what policies we must have, um, and we will bring back something that is called the national interest. Is it rude to come and speak to people frankly face to face like that? Well, I mean I can be quite charming if I want to be. Nigel Farage, leader of reform in the United Kingdom, thank you so much for joining us at Fortune very much. Thank you, Nigel.