Chris Smalls, President, Amazon Labor Union 
Interviewer: Roy Bahat, Bloomberg Beta

Brainstorm Tech 2022: How It Started; How It’s Going 

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Brainstorm Tech 2022: How It Started; How It’s Going 


Alright. Hi everybody, this one's gonna be different. Alright so chris let's just start with for people who haven't been following the details of the story. What happened. You've been working at Amazon for a few years getting promoted within the company and just tell us what unfolded. Yeah absolutely. Um I was working there 2015 when I started came an entry level worked hard, got promoted up to a process assistant which is assistant manager. Um I was in that position for the next 4, 4.5 years. I opened up to other facilities. My first building was E. W. R. nine New Jersey. My second one was B. D. L. To Connecticut Windsor Connecticut. And my last building was okay so then you get to JFK Staten Island and what unfolds from there? Well I came in 2018 the building just opened. It was great at first you know um like a launch of a new building is opportunity for me myself to uh show the company who I am as a supervisor, hopefully move up. And uh of course I love working with people. So it was great at 1st 1st 2 years I was on the night shift only thing uh was the issue was to commute for me um from New Jersey to Staten Island. It's very difficult. Yeah. How was that a couple of hours? Hour or two hours both ways. Okay and so where did the where did the trouble that that the president talked about start? Well things really took a turn before the pandemic for me um personally you know I noticed over the years, you know, of course I lost a lot of good workers around me, a lot of hard working people. Uh just because there was a system that was designed to turn the burn and um I trained a lot of upper management, A lot of people came in entry level and what amazon does with their process assistance, they have them shadow the new hires, especially the ones that are gonna be management. And you know, for years I'm doing this position and it only takes two years to become a salary manager. I'm wondering when it's gonna be my opportunity. I applied to become a salary manager 50 times and only was interviewed twice in five years. So it didn't make any sense to me of why somebody that opened up three buildings train thousands of their employees, hundreds of their upper management didn't get the same opportunity uh of other, you know, counterparts. And this was before the pandemic, you know, So mentally I'm physically I was already checked out. You know, I said, I put enough time into this company. Uh It's really time for me to resign. Um but it wasn't until COVID-19 came to play and I noticed that, you know, amazon dropped the ball when it came to protecting its employees. You know, we didn't have any P. P. We didn't have any cleaning supplies. We don't have the essential needs that we were delivering as essential workers in the beginning of the pandemic and I tried to raise the flag well before the virus transition from Seattle to new york city. Um As we were sitting in the cafeterias everyday watching CNN like everybody else um the TVs in the cafeteria is saying, you know, we all need to be six ft apart, we need to be mashed up, We really need to be quarantine. And we're watching this while we're sitting shoulder to shoulder in a cafeteria for the 400 people. So I immediately stood up and ran HR tried to go through the proper channels to raise the alarm saying hey what are we doing about this? You know, I'm a single parent got kids, a lot of the workers, there, a majority of women um a lot of senior citizens work there as well. Um We do have grandparents at home things of that, you know, so we wanted to make sure that we would say um just to make sure tracking. So in the absence of any organization to represent you, you did what many companies would want their team, their people to do is to just show up and raise the issue to HR you know, try to make the case and then what happens yeah after doing that for A day or two um the company was nonchalant about, you know what we were advocating for our first um So I had to take further action, you know um I pretty much told them that I'm not gonna work as a supervisor instead, I'm going to tell the work is the truth. Um what happened was I came to work on a Tuesday. one of my colleagues uh tested positive and she text me this and she came back to work because she needed to make her money and she didn't know what to do. Actually, can I stop you from that for a second because we're gonna get to talking about the union. But one thing that people in business often say is, well, we have a free market where it's competitive if you didn't want to work at amazon or she didn't want to work at amazon, she didn't like their safety policies or something like that. She could go work somewhere else. That's clearly, I think not how you felt about it, but when people say, hey, it's a free market, you go take another job. What's your response to that? But that doesn't solve anything. You know, it's just like jumping out of, you know, I don't want fire into the next. You know, they always say that you don't like your job, just quit. But this overall picture today, you know, keep quitting our jobs. The next person that comes in is going to go through the same thing and these corporations want that. I think you were saying that some of your colleagues learned they got fired by looking at some internal app or something like that. And so, but eventually you got fired. Right? And so what happened? Right? So once again, you know, my colleague tested positive, you know, that was it for me. Um, I came back to work, we had a meeting daily meeting with our upper management and then that daily ST meeting, they're telling me as a supervisor not to tell the rest of the employees in the warehouse that somebody was positive. They wanted to make sure that, you know, business as usual, exact words. And I said, oh wow, that was it. Um, I couldn't stand with that. So I told every employee from that moment that I came in contact with, um the truth that we're exposed by the end of the week. Um they didn't answer to our advocacy about it. We sat in the cafeteria Off the clock every single day for 10 hours a day going into the general manager's office to tell him, hey, we were scared, were afraid to come to work. What are you guys gonna do? We want the building to be Closed down for the minimum of the 14 day incubation period. The beginning, that's what we wanted. We come back to work. Um We wasn't getting that. So that's when we started to organize the walk out. Um we spent the weekend doing that. And on that Monday March 30 we let her walk out around lunchtime noon and um two hours after that walk out. Um I was terminated over the meaning all the folks who worked in that facility together. Many of them, maybe not all all walked out together at lunch. Uh Quite a few. Yeah. No, I mean I just point out earlier today, there was a session about talent here and we were talking about a company where all the engineers said we're gonna take a day, a month for mental health day. I was thinking well, you know, like take lunch for physical health and has a very different context. We think of it as a strike or work stoppage or something like that. And so that was the point. Then you get fired and then, you know, uh one of the elements, you know that I think followed that closely was that the general counsel of Amazon sent out an email saying that, you know, they hoped that you would be the face of trying to organize because they said a lot of, you know, unkindly not smart, not articulate. So then you start this unionization campaign and by the way, we're gonna answer questions asked, you know, get you guys questions in a minute, but just tell us what happened and what you want now, like, let's just get up to present day. Yeah. Um um Yeah, at that moment when uh that memo came out and motivated me to continue to advocate for workers rights, especially because Jeff Bezos who was the richest man in the world at that time, I was in that meeting and signed off on that. Um So we spent the year traveling to his mansions and penthouses protesting in front with amazon workers ah basically saying we're not gonna give up, you know. Um We got to a point where there was a union drive in Alabama. Um We supported it from new york, but we were curious about how they were doing it. We went down there, I learned some things, we saw some opportunities. Then we came back to Staten Island April of 2021 to begin our own independent worker led Union. Why did you want a union? Well, I've seen that there is a way of workers getting the protection that they need. You know, there's nothing on paper um that protects workers, You know, amazon's are at will company meaning that they can make up any reason to fire people. That's the system that's designed that we see Uh term terminates people at a rate of 150% a year. Um we're talking about 200 300 people losing their job every week in Staten Island. Um I just, I couldn't stand with that and having a union provides job security provide higher wages, provide better medical leave options, provides longer uh breaks if you need, it uh provides things that these workers need in these warehouses, just so they can have a better quality of life overall. And so those are the wants, that's what amazon labor union wants now, because you have this vote where, unlike in Alabama, you know, and for folks who don't know, those votes are certified by the federal government. You know, the majority wins. Amazon has since objected, which we could talk about a minute. But the idea is then you have a worker controlled organization that isn't part of some big national union, it's your own independent organization, and then the company is forced to negotiate a contract with you. That's the idea, right? Well, they're not really forced, you know, they they have to out of good faith they should come to the table to negotiate a contract. You know, the government can intervene and, you know, put an order for them to do that. But using how we're supposed to go, we won our election fair and square. Um the workers voted now, we represent the workers. The company should recognize that we won and come to the table so that we can negotiate the contract with those demands that we're asking for. Now. We don't get everything that we asked for. You know, this is why we call it negotiating. And we just, you know, once again, we deserve more as essential workers and having the union will give us representation. Uh, well, so, you know, and maybe it will turn to a question in a second. But let me just ask, you know, you're wearing, you're talking about Jeff Bezos, you're wearing the ether rich jacket and at the same time you're gonna have to have that company on the other side of the negotiating table. And I'm curious if you imagine what it might look like a few years from now. If somebody in this room is an amazon shareholder or something like that or an executive at amazon, what's your guess of how, what how should it play out in terms of what the relationship is between the company and the amazon labor union? Well, yeah, you know, number one, I represent myself, you know, I don't represent the workers, you know, the workers democratically decide how this union is formed. That's why it's an independent worker led union. I'm an intern president and the workers have a choice until the workers elect somebody that, okay, sorry, keep going. Right. So the workers feel that, you know, I'm doing a good job as the president, they will vote for it. You know, if not, um, they have the opportunity to elect one of their members are, choose who they like. You know, the thing about, um, you know, the way we organized, the way I talk, the way I dress the way you know who I am as a person. Um, it's important that we stay true to who we are. You know, I represent the community that we organized in new york city, you know, so for them, work is seeing that it inspires them. We're talking about labor and different platforms. We're reaching different plateaus. I've been at the White House Daily show, White House testifying congress. So it's just about breaking barriers, you know, a lot of stuff, a lot of stereotypes, you know, out there. And at the end of the day, I'm just, well, let me be direct then about the stereotype would not, it's not a personal thing or about the but the stereotype about unions is, and if you want to raise your hand and ask the questions, feel free with somebody come around with the paddle. The stereotypes about unions is, you know, an amazon said it, this is the greatest threat to the company. You know, Howard Schultz says it's an assault on the company. And the view is it will ruin the company. And so for people who like to shop at amazon or think it's a good business because it's been built in a certain way. What's your message to those people? Well, number one, we want the people to support the workers. You know, once again, these are your neighbors. You know, these are these are the people that come from your community, amazon sets up shop in your community. It reaps the benefits off of your community. Um, and it doesn't benefit in your community. I mean, your workers, your neighbors, they're going to work, they're getting injured at a high rate. They're being unprotected. They're working throughout the pandemic right now, they're being fired for by an app, you know, before you even get to work. Um, what's that app called by the way? Just so people, so the internal employee. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's been stories that people don't even hear about no deaths at these warehouses, you know, shootings, tornadoes, uh, violence, things like that is what we're trying to uh, pretty much bridge the gap. You know, as a union representative, we want to make sure that the company operates the way it is, make their money, but we want to make sure that the workers are also taken care of. So what I hear you saying is that the whole system has to work including for the workers. And unfortunately I think we're ticking down right here on time. Oh, it we haven't, can you do your question lightning fast before I get the Thank you for your, your perspective. My parents were both part of unions, one was a firefighter, one was a teacher and I think the biggest criticism around them has been kind of take backs that unions get. How do you look at that? Maybe explain what it takes back is? Well, I mean, I understand that there's some bad union represent, you know, uh, there's been bad unions in the past, there's been bad, uh, union contracts, things of that nature, but this is why we did, we chose to go the route we did. Absolutely. Because yes, you know, workers, what's the ultimate power of putting workers in the driver's seat? You know, we know the ins and out of the company, I knew the ins and out of amazon I was invested into the company. You've cited some of the management principles, disagree and commit that kind of thing. Absolutely. You know, I category same principles over to my organizing and activism. Yeah, somebody said to me, you know, are you pro union? I said I'm pro union in the same way I'm pro restaurant, I think they should exist, some are good, some are bad and so we're all gonna have to figure this out together, you know, for folks who are interested in exploring this further. You know, chris has been here the entire time, happy to talk about it and chris I just want to say we're learning because you're doing something completely new and for that example, I feel grateful and I hope we all should be grateful for the learning. So thank you very much