On a recent Diary of a CEO podcast episode, host Steven Bartlett welcomed former Love Island contestant turned podcaster, Chris Williamson, as his guest. Between them, the pair front two of the world’s biggest podcasts: according to Spotify’s ranking of 2025’s most popular shows in the U.S., Bartlett, 33, who conducts in-depth, often provocative interviews with high profile people about business and life, comes in at No. 11 and has over 14 million subscribers on YouTube. Previous guests include Brené Brown, Michelle Obama, Trevor Noah and Rebel Wilson. Williamson’s Modern Wisdom, meanwhile, skews towards self-improvement, socio-economic trends and psychology and ranks at No. 17. 

The theme of the two-and-a-half-hour episode was how to maximize your productivity and happiness in 2026. However, it was an exchange about the declining global birth rate, and its link to what Williamson, 37, in particular portrayed as female selfishness, that stood out to me.

In pondering why people are having fewer children, Williamson fairly cited social shifts as leading young women to delay motherhood in favor of higher education and careers. He then moved on to the “anti-family” message that he believes permeates modern society. One of its key proponents, he explained, is The Girl With The List, an influencer otherwise known as Abigail Porter, who wryly discusses the many factors that led her to not want children. These include “‘can’t wear cute heels with the girls’ [and] ‘will have to miss brunch,’” Williamson said.

If the above are some of the reasons why you’d prefer a childfree life, all power to you. But in only mentioning those two reasons, and not exploring more serious ones, Williamson trivialized the issue—and the lives of women.

As a 36-year-old who is constantly having versions of this conversation with the women around me, I can tell you that we are not talking about heels and brunch when deciding if and when to have children. We are discussing the cost of living crisis and how we’d afford childcare. We’re discussing the brevity of parental leave here in the U.S. If single, we’re trying to figure out how to meet a partner who we feel excited about before our biological clock times out. If that doesn’t happen, we’re considering whether we’d have a child on our own and how we would cope with that financially and emotionally. And yes, we’re discussing changing gender norms and whether, now that there are various life paths available to women, one that doesn’t involve child-rearing could be more fulfilling to us.

There is also the irony of two childfree men in their 30s weighing in so authoritatively on this issue. Bartlett does ask Williamson why he thinks neither of them have children, despite frequently discussing population growth. Williamson says that he needed to spend time “working out who he was.” Bartlett says that he travels too much to be ready for a child. Both are fair answers. However, it would have been pertinent for them to acknowledge that, as men, they have carefree years of self-discovery available to them that women who want children—or might want children—do not. How would their lives and perspectives change if they knew that their shot at biological children ended somewhere between their late 30s and mid-40s?

Bartlett concedes that, despite not feeling ready for a baby, he will probably have one soon with his female partner because he believes that doing so will improve the meaning of his life. Of course, this will involve change and sacrifice for him, but he is not the one having the baby and facing the physical, psychological and career challenges that come with that. Another point that could have been mentioned.

In short, it’s important to dissect why people are having fewer children, not least because it reveals important facts about who we are as individuals and a society. But doing so well requires nuance, depth and a diversity of perspectives. Maybe next time Bartlett and Williamson discuss women’s life choices they could, I don’t know, include a woman in the conversation? Just a thought. 

Ellie Austin
Editorial Director, Most Powerful Women

The Most Powerful Women Daily newsletter is Fortune’s daily briefing for and about the women leading the business world. Today’s edition was curated by Emma Hinchliffe. Subscribe here.

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PARTING WORDS

"I remember when there was a time where I had nothing to balance."

— Golden Globe winner Teyana Taylor on balancing the demands of her career and awards season