Anita Hill, Professor of Law, Public Policy and Women's Studies, Heller Graduate School of Policy and Management, Brandeis University
Interviewer: Ellen McGirt, FORTUNE

MPW Summit 2020: One-On-One with Anita Hill

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We welcome Anita Hill back to the MPW stage to discuss gender equality and racial violence and the ramifications of not having tough conversations.

Our next guest is an M. P. W. Treasure. She really needs no introduction. But I'm going to give it a try. She has been quoted as saying that leadership at the top on any issue in any institution is what changes the game. That includes issues such as sexual harassment and gender equality and of course racial equality and all the intersections in between. So let's welcome back Anita Hill to this M. P. W. Stage to talk about the role we all play in shaping a new and more equitable reality professor. It's so wonderful to be with you today. It's great to be reviewed as well. I'm sorry we can't be in the same room. But this this is a pretty close back up. It really is, especially when things are so urgent. Um connecting just means so much more. Now before we talk about the role that we can all play in shaping a better world, I think it's smart to start with the role that you are clearly playing in shaping a better world. And you've had a very busy breaking news day. So let's start there. I'm going to ask first about your work with the Hollywood Commission, and just to set it up for the audience is the commission chaired by you founded by Kathleen Kennedy and Nina Shaw. And today you release your first ever report from um entertainment industry worker survey were the results. So what you expected, you know, there are such a large amount of data. Um there were some things that we were a bit surprising, but overall I think they were what we expected and um they were much richer, I think in some ways, uh we not only collected numbers through asking multiple choice questions, but we also allowed for narrative answer from each of the participants And out of the 9600 participants, we got 3300 narrative. So it's almost like there's a lot of information there, wow. So I just had a chance and that was released this morning. I had a chance to give it a good um skin. But I was really struck by how serious the issues of confidence around accountability. The idea that that no tolerance of bad behavior isn't something that people have confidence then and just how the the abuse of power is continuing. Were there were there any top line numbers or takeaways that you can share? Well, this report is one of four that will be coming out and this would uh focuses on accountability. Just as you mentioned, the word confidence in the system confidence that people who are violators will in fact be held accountable. Um and what we found was some really dismal um results. And oh, you know what it came down to is that About 64% of the people who responded to a survey concluded that there would not be accountability, even if an individual who was a higher power or higher authority in a workplace was have bound to have a rack someone, these are not just accusations. These are the findings of harassment will not be result in any kind of responsibility being put on the person doing the harassing. So that's really disturbing. But then when you look at what that means is that ultimately people will not come forward, either. They don't think people will be held accountable or they think, uh, in fact, that they're going to be retaliated against even before the findings of accountability are the winter. So we're, you know, it's, it's a, it's a difficult thing to kind of figure out what comes first, um, having the system or actually making sure that the systems are trusted and we are trying to do all of the above, making sure we have trustworthy systems, um, that the systems are saved, um, and that they're reliable. So the report had a couple of solutions that I saw. I'm curious about how those, those ideas in the report really about even bystander training, it's going to help get to the bigger goal of making the industry safe against harassment and abuse. People say in the survey that they want To be responsible. They want to be good citizens in these faces and they want them to be safer. We found that 62% of the incidents that were reported, uh, people said that there were witnesses there. And so what we are doing is we're having by standard training to teach people how to come forward how to do, uh, to support their colleagues, but without interfering with what their colleagues wish for, making things worse. And I think there's a lot of questions that people have about how to come forward. The respondents to the survey actually asked for by standards training, 91% of people who responded after Bystander training. So that's something we're doing. We're also doing uh introducing a new tech and april platform that allows people to get information about uh, rules and whatever. But the standards are to get information about resources to help them understand the process, but very importantly to be able to put in a complaint with information about abuse and then having uh seeing if there is a match, if somebody else comes in with the same name and the same kind of behavior that's complaining about, then it triggers a response that could ultimately end up in an investigation. We're doing this because we do know that there is a problem with serial harassers and violators of all different times. Yeah, that I was going to ask about that, but I also wanted to remind everybody. I'm going to be looking for questions from the audience in a few minutes. But I'm I'm curious as to how some of the work that you're doing with the convention overlaps with your work at BRANDEIS, for example, is there a way that your cross pollinating your efforts? Is there a way that you're learning here and sharing their Well, my work now is focused on gender based violence in addition to um sexual harassment. We're looking at all sorts, all types of gender based violence. But the overlap really is that what we understand uh, and BRANDEIS, you know, we do the research, we studied the research and we and and that is very useful um, in the Commission Mark. Because what we're trying to do is to really established what the best standards and practices are in a workplace. And you can only do that from gathering the body of information that's outside of of the uh, the industry itself. So it's a combination and there is overlap. And I'm very proud of the students who work with me as well as I am of the fact that the commission, you know, something that I think because you did mention, um in fact, we are interested in the issue of harassment. And if you look at the long title of our name, where we are there to provide access to information and provide opportunity for people to respond to discrimination. We're in there to help foster diversity and inclusion at the Hollywood Commission. So, as you say, all of the above plus the intersection. So I got you mentioned your students and I want to ask about the pandemic and what it's like for them and what you think is happening for students and educators. But just I want to just want to pull together the last little bit on the commission work. There is there is there some outside benefit? It's good for every organization, Whatever their function to have a harassment free discriminatory free environment. It's just the right thing to do. Is just a good thing to do. Is there an extra additional benefit that Hollywood and entertainment has a harassment free, discriminatory free environment? Is there a societal benefit there that we need to think about? Well aside the entertainment industry, like no other has the opportunity to really model behavior through its storytelling through the way it's about film, uh, through the way it presents the world. And so we want to be the model of the things that we are presenting on the screen. Good things and the good conversations in society that are being had right now of I believe the industry wants to be that model. Um, it is always good for any business to be able to promote inclusion, diversity and equality. We know that it leads to greater creativity and greater productivity. So, um, yes, absolutely. It's good for the industry itself and it's good for the rest of society as well. So let's talk about students and teachers and families and all the people who should care about them. That this pandemic has been disastrous for working families, for women and particularly for vulnerable students. How do you see this playing out? And is there a role that we can be that we can be playing to make things easier? Well, I think business always has a role to play, especially when you're talking about a role in higher education. You know, we will have students uh for example, who will be looking for work, who will be looking for opportunities to to actually intern and learn work in ways that will be remote, because, you know, we can't the students can't be in office as well. So I think um our relationship with our students and business relationships, um this has to be proactive, You need to be looking at our educational facilities to see what can you do to help students get the benefit from the learning that they have in the university, make sure that it gets played out in the workplaces. And I think this is a great opportunity for new collaborations between businesses and university. Um the other part is a relationship between what, you know, businesses perhaps can do to make sure that young people who are the disadvantage who don't have access to wifi, you don't have the electronics necessary to be able to log into the computer, they don't have computer. Um, so that, you know, this is an opportunity to make sure that every student can get the benefit from a virtual education because they will have the facilities and business can play a role in that either is a philanthropic role or in sort of in a teaching role in development things that can help to access their education better. But you can also play a role in terms of how you treat your employees by making sure that you understand that employees are under additional pressure. Now, if they have Children, whether they're in elementary or secondary school or in college and the accommodations for that added burden if you will uh need to be made by lawyer. So we have a little less than a minute left. And I do have a big question, um, every time there's a Supreme Court opening for a justice and I know you're going to be talking on the roof, theater Ginsburg memorial panel, um black women's names come up as a potential replacement. It's always you, it's always Michelle Obama. And then we run out of names and there are some extraordinary women, black women in the federal judiciary, but we don't know them. And I'm wondering if you had any ideas what is keeping or if there's what are the barriers are keeping black jurists, black women jurists from, from getting the traction they need. You know, I think the problem is just like all of those black ceiling problems that we experience as black women and men and women of color generally, you know, we don't have access to the people who are making these decisions. I think our political value is underrated and and we're under value. I think we are not necessarily even thought of. It's just like those decisions where people pick people who look like them or travel in their circles or who have careers that you know involved uh corporate representation. Um There are some really brilliant but and brown women who are judges or who are would be judges whose careers have not taken them in the direction of a corporate law firm, but uh who get overlooked because they didn't follow that path. So there are all sorts of greed and I think we need to broaden, broaden ourselves when we're starting to pick judges at whatever level, whether it's the Supreme Court level of the state court level. Um all of the above need to be considered and leading to think more broadly about who is qualified to be judge. That is the perfect advice to end on. We need to broaden the scope across the board. Professor Anita Hill. It is always so wonderful to catch up. And I hope next year we can do it safely and in person. Well, thank you. And uh and I hope everyone is staying safe and well.