Francoise Brougher, Former Chief Operating Officer, Pinterest
Interviewer: Kristen Bellstrom, Features Editor and Co-chair, MPW Next Gen, FORTUNE

MPW Next Gen 2020: One on One: Françoise Brougher

Francoise Brougher, Former Chief Operating Officer, Pinterest

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we want to start off our second half with some pretty tough but important concerns that a lot of women so the glass ceiling toxic corporate culture, gender discrimination. What can we do about these issues and what can companies do to become more equal and inclusive? Joining us now is the former ceo of print print trip francoise broker with some unique perspective and advice for women coming up through the ranks. Prince La thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. So you are C. 00 And number two at Pinterest until this spring. And you are now suing the company saying that you are fired because you complained about gender discrimination. Um You also wrote a medium post in which you you talked in some detail about your experience at Pinterest and some of the things that you talked about there were being paid less than some of your male colleagues being shut out of key decisions, key meetings. Um even receiving sort of gender oriented feedback in your review. Um Now I know you have a lawsuit in process right now so you can't get into every single detail. But I do want to ask you a little bit about some of what you experienced a Pinterest. Can you tell us about a couple of those moments and you know maybe particularly something that made me say, you know, we have a real problem here. Yeah. And um I should start by the beginning when when I was higher. I was extremely excited to jump interests. If you think about it, it's a platform 70% of the user of women. Um And my initial conversation we're really good. I know continuing tonight quite well from my experience at google and Square. Um I have managed this type of go to market team for many, many years now. Um And the company was going to go I. P. O. So for me it was a perfect company to join and bring my leadership skill uh to the team. Unfortunately it didn't leave my expectation. And from the get go. You know you start seeing a little sign and clacking the culture that are tough to identify. Um There is a lot of microaggression that happened I talk about in my blog post so that the meeting after the meeting where in a culture you actually do not understand where the decisions are being made and you realize after a while this is the same group of men that makes a decision. And you always find out after the fact I think when things became more public is when we did prepare for the I. P. O. With a lot of work I was included from the road show. So that was the first public exclusion. Um And then you continue you know I started being inviting for board meetings so all this time starting to line up until I went and complained and then get fired. Mhm. Um Now because interest isn't part of this conversation I just want to say that they've said they're reviewing your complaint. Um That that they're doing an internal investigation into their culture. Um Now one thing that you you say in the the medium post is that you are offered an N. D. A. Um when you left the company and you chose not to sign it. Um You know as you mentioned you're you're very well known executive in Silicon Valley and you know by um not signing that agreement. You're involving yourself in potentially very difficult fight. So talk a little bit about why you made that decision. Yeah. So what I also wanted to explain is even for women as an executive level, discrimination is a little more insidious and takes form of exclusion like expand before being left out of key decision. Um and this behavior keeps female executive from advancing and we're doing their job. Uh and that's what's happened at interest. So my decision to purchase the company was Driven by two main reasons once of course, often to hold interest accountable for discrimination and reiteration behaviors told me. And then I thought I can use my voice to stand up for all women who face this type of discrimination and bias in the workplace. Um, you know, they can't stick up because there is this fear of retaliation. So I try initially resolve the issue uh, company, but it became clear that my company not the address. So I had to go public. Um, and I recognize also that I'm in a very unique and privileged position Having worked over 25 years in the valley. So if I don't fight for this, um, we will fight for this issue. Um, I think that is a very good point. Um, you know, there's another part of your post is set out for me and if anybody knows medium, you know, you can go through and highlight the things um, as a reader that that really resonate for you. And the thing that is highlighted over and over again and your post is uh, you right. There is a reason that women do not negotiate as hard as men for higher pay. Um, it is not because we are not good negotiators as I would learn interest. It was because we get punished when we do. So I wanted to ask you just, you know why you think that that part resonated for people and what you meant by that? Yeah. And I think you have seen there is another example right now in the valley, for example, a mini Cramer at kata is also fighting the same issue of pay equity. I just think this problem can be solved is there is much more transparency even at the executive level of compensation. I think people need to pay for the job and just that not for that gender. Uh and I think unfortunately because this is capt in secrecy, we actually don't know. And still in my case I found it through an S1 filing uh that I was Say for the first year of 37 cents when one of my colleague was dollars. And this was a consequence of a very back loaded vesting schedule. Um You've said that now that you've left the company and you have, you know, a little bit of hindsight about the experience that you have reflected on the role that you played also in this toxic culture. Um, so can you tell us a little bit about, you know what it is he realized and what you mean by that? Yeah. So I honestly wish I had spent more time with women in the company. Um, you know, I grew up in silicon Valley professionally, not as a kid. Um, and I always had this month where I really focused on getting my work down and then spending time with my family. But inside, I wish I took the time also to reach out to other women more socially. I think when you develop social connection, you discuss your experience and ultimately realize that you are not alone. I think we're being at full. I tried to help, but it was really an individual basis trying to help women getting into some meeting or getting hurt, but I never took a broader or in the company. Um, and I still being a room good ball model or was going to be enough. And I realized it was not, I think I could have done more well when we were talking about this earlier, you know, you mentioned that one of your he sort of priorities as a person and an executive as your time. Um, and that the part of that was perhaps being sort of really focused on, on using, using your time for, you know, to, to drive the business forward. So, you know, would you recommend that women or maybe all of us take a, take a step back and think about our time a little bit differently when we're working? Yeah, maybe. I think we tend to, because we are concerned for time because some of us are family or other or parents or other obligations that's more traditionally actually still lean on women. Um We tend to be, you know, taking our work very efficiently. We don't spend time as a water cooler, We don't have a lot of other interaction with your team outside work. And I do think men sometimes have an advantage to create social connection, it's a little bit easier for them. Yeah, especially hard now that we're all, you know, at home and working remotely, you really have to carve out time if you want to try to be social at all. Um You know, one thing that I reflected on when I was reading your your essay, your medium story is that it seems like you saw some of these red flags when you were coming into interest and and that you just figured they were things you could fix. Um and I wonder now as you look back and you know, for our audience who's listening, are there things that you would suggest that people look for? Um and and take seriously if they're considering, you know, a new job, a new opportunity. Yeah. And uh you know, again, I'm always extremely optimistic. So I knew pinteresque has some kind of reputation in the Valais and that of being a very um you know, kind of uh I don't know how to describe, but a very nice culture to the point of probably being relative to nice and having too many decisions that were not very transparent and I was all this before I join and I, You know, I thought I could change it. I just didn't realize when you join the company that is only 10 years in process. It's very hard to change culture unless you don't have the buying from the top executive. So I just thought by behaving a certain way, being very transparent myself, I will help to change the culture. And I realized that I could not, it was it was to classify of a culture for me by myself to try to change it. So maybe one of the things to look for is you know um that that culture and that were top, sorry uh you are experiencing is the question I didn't answer completely. I think uh one of those things like a woman told me very recently, she told me now that she read this and she read other people accounts she will look like you know women in the leadership team is that women on the board, how do they treat and representing minority in general and really looking at the number? Uh and if you go, even right now, I'm protecting some company for um advisor type of role. And I look and if I look at the executive, there is really not a good representation of women or minority, I just don't go, yeah. Um, we have an audience question, so I'm gonna go ahead and uh gender come on and and ask that question again, Hey Kristen hey francois um we have a question from high. A question comes from Helen Cup. It's a really interesting questions. She writes, remote teams have both the benefit of equalizing the playing field, but also the risk of further deepening of these exclusionary behaviors that happened in the office when we're only connecting with people, quote unquote like us, what can we do collectively as leaders to ensure that we're continuing to equalize the playing field in this more distributed world? Yeah, that's a great question. I think every company right now is dealing with this question. I think the best thing you can do is cough time. Um you know, I I was let go. The Pandorica already started. Um I did much more just for example manager meeting more regularly. I was doing it every other week where people just exchange best practice. And it can be about work, but it could also be about uh work like balance what to do with your kids and having these patterns and regular not just one off, will you will be helpful. Yeah. Um Thank you francois. I also wanted to ask you um you know in a sort of a similar point, you know you and your medium post by saying that you have some suggestions for for ceos and for companies. Um So we just have a little bit of time left. So could you uh end us on one thing that you would tell executives on this who are listening right now about what they should do um to make sure that they are leading a more equal company. Mhm. So one day we pay attention murderous. Uh It seems very trivial um And just not measuring hiring but measuring promotion retention advancement, it's very important um creates much better on boarding when you bring people in that are different from you and really focusing on what I call the culture adds versus the cultural fit. Because sometimes cultural field is another way of those discriminate from people that uh sound different. Like you look different like you will behave differently of you. Um Thank you from both. I think those are great tips. Um And I really appreciate your time.