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Every advance in artificial intelligence depends on a complex industrial backbone: the data centers, networks, power systems, and water resources that make large-scale computing possible. As demand for AI grows, the challenge is not simply to add capacity, but to design and build infrastructure that is reliable, resource-conscious, and thoughtfully integrated into the cities and regions that host it. Success depends on smart choices in data center site selection, architecture, grid access, cooling, and the relationships among developers, governments, and communities. Two leaders in data-center development and design examine what it takes to build at the scale AI requires, and with the public trust on which it depends.

Kevin Guan, Chief Investment Officer & Executive Vice President, Bridge Data Centres 
John Taylor, Global Critical Facilities Leader, Principal , Gensler 
Nicholas Gordon, Editor, Asia, Fortune 

Building the Machine: Infrastructure for the Intelligence Era

Conferences

All right, why don't, why don't we get started, um, so I, I wanna start with you, with you, Kevin, um, you know, you see so many headlines about, you know, new data center projects, huge sums of money being thrown around whenever I travel around the region in every country, people talk about data centers and how they wanna be a home for data centers, rightly or wrongly. Um, but why don't you help us kind of go behind those headlines and those big figures a little bit and tell us kind of what's actually going on in this AI data center boom here in Asia? Sure, just maybe to level set a little bit, um, so British Data Centers BDC were one of the pioneers and largest operators of hyper scale data centers in Southeast Asia. Um, and, uh, we're, you know, 70% owned by Bank Capital, which is an American private equity firm, um, to, to answer your question, um, you know, if you look at where demand is from a global perspective, is certainly robust, is no longer just about cloud services, is no longer about trainings, it's actually about, uh, AI adoption at scale, right, and. Uh, but ultimately all that demand needs to be supplied by critical digital infrastructure data centers and the physical limits to how quickly you can build data centers at scale, right? And so we're kind of seeing significant delays and challenges with delivery in the US. We're seeing, um, you know, demand far outceed supply here in Asia as well, but if you look at Asia as a whole, it's a collection of very. Different tutonic plates. Japan is different than Malaysia. Malaysia is very different than Australia, right? And what we're seeing now is that there's an incredible opportunity to address a short term, I would call, you know, supply constraint in some of the more um. Developed markets such as the US or Europe, right? But longer term, ultimately Asia has 50% of the global population and adoption for AI should take off and catch up relative to the US. And so we talked to our hyperscale customers, they're looking to us to resolve near term supply constraints in other parts of the world, right? But they're also more importantly, Investing for the medium to longer term for the demand potential that there is here in Southeast Asia and in APAC and beyond, um, and we're gonna talk about some of those constraints and those timelines in a second, but I wanna turn to John next and you know, as someone who's involved in the design and construction of data centers. You know what actually goes into that process? Is it more than just a big box with server racks in it? Like how should we think about what these data centers actually are? Well, I think we're well past the stage of them being a big gray box, um, that no longer fits the bill. Um, increasingly data centers are moving into urbanized areas. They're no longer single story, uh, large, sprawling campuses. They are in parts of the world, but in Asia where we're somewhat land constrained, they're often up to 1011 stories high. Increasingly they're coming into areas which are urbanized, sometimes in close proximity to communities, residential communities. And so we have to build sympathetically. Um, the facade, uh, the footprint. Obviously there's concerns around noise as well, there is. Some sensitivity there may be a bit overplayed, but we need to move data centers from being an industrial, perceived as industrial infrastructure to being something which is part of the civic infrastructure which serves a community, you know. There's a lot of pushback at the moment in parts of the world, and I think we're all having to respond, and it's only right that we do so. These sensitivities are, are real. And, and I want to pivot back to Kevin. I mean, because, you know, a lot of data centers are being built in hot climates. You're people are considering building them in kind of urban areas. When you're thinking about opportunities to kind of build new data centers in certain markets, I mean, how are you approaching these many different markets that are here in, in APAC? Yes, um, you know, I think to, you know, follow up on the constraint question, right, we're increasingly seeing more and more of that, um, everywhere, um, no matter what the underlying geography is and across sort of the valley chain, the bottlenecks of constraints are showing up, right, um, and so, um, how we think about resolving these constraints, how we think about, you know. Um, embracing opportunity is really through innovation and also through close partnerships with the community. I'll give you a few examples, right? Ultimately, we're in the business of converting power to compute, right? And so if you start with power. We've been working with innovative partners such as SK and Keppel on new energy solutions, right? We've been, uh, working with strategic partners on, uh, on behind the meter solutions, so you're not dependent and only drawing on the national grid, right? And then um the designs that go into our data centers where we co-develop with our hyper scale customers and our, you know, um, supplier partners, right, so we try to make them as efficient as possible so every NBA of power you can e-draw, you can generate more, you know, what we call IT capacity, right. And when it comes to water, for instance, right, in, in Malaysia, um, water is becoming more of a constraint. So instead of using and competing with local residents for clean water, what we've done is we've signed partnerships with the local municipal, and we've taken municipal wastewater, right? And we've built a wastewater treatment plan on our campuses. And we're recycling municipal wastewater using a portion of that for our data centers and what we don't use we return to the community in the form of clean water and it goes on and on all the way through operations where you know we work pretty closely with uh local um schools and communities to really train um workers for the next generation of uh. Work and careers in digital infrastructure, right? So I think innovation and close partnerships with local communities is what it takes to address increasing constraints. So I, I, I do wanna follow up on that and I also wanna get John's views after yours, but you know, the, the conversation about constraints have largely focused on power and water. I think water in particularly in the US, but I mean power is important too. Are those still kind of the main constraints on data on data center construction, or have we moved on to a whole new set of constraints? Those are still the constraints, um, but they're increasingly more innovation to resolve those constraints, right? So for further elaborate on water, we've developed waterless solutions, right? So you know, um. We, we can take closed loop water, circulate those what we call directed chips, cool the chips, and instead of evaporating the water, right, we can use other ways to cool down that water, right? So, so that's what we call water solutions. There's, uh, you know, besides recycling wastewater, there's more efficient ways to use water without wastage. But I think what's under the radar and what's becoming more of a constraint. Is sort of this competition for talent, right, and how do we retain, train, and, um, elevate talent and then what's actually becoming an even bigger constraint is capital, right? To give you a perspective, Bridge, we operate, you know, 600 megawatts this year will be about 1 gigawatt in operations next year. Depends on where you build these data centers. In Japan it could be as expensive as $20 million US dollars per megawatt, and that's only 20% of the total investment that goes in, the rest being servers, chips, racks that that that go into the data centers. And so there's a global, um, uh. I wouldn't say competition, but a global grab for capital as well, right, um, and, and, and I do want to return to that point later, but I do want to go to John. I mean, again, for you, do you see power and water kind of still being the major constraints for data centers, or again, are there, are there new things to keep in mind now? Well, there are, there are further constraints. I totally agree with the war for talent. That's, that's real, um. And er not enough young people coming into the sector is going to become an increasing challenge, but it's up to the sector to to train young people and find ways. The other constraints is really supply chain of long lead equipment is becoming a constraint very much. And some. Long lead items like generators can be over 3 years from from certain um global uh vendors, um. One of the challenges of course is also permitting. I think we've seen a pause in Southeast Asia in Thailand just over the last few days where there was There's a misunderstanding about how these buildings should be classified and uh and that's put a complete pause and there will be a reset there on the planning and permitting and that's after Malaysia's spurting growth that's probably the next fastest growing territory in Southeast Asia. So, getting back to the point earlier about buildings, one of the constraints is also how do we make these buildings, their form and function. Um, capable of still lasting the 15 to 20 years they're designed for, when actually the life cycle of the chip, the latest AI chips coming out, well you know where they're coming from, but say in Nvidia and others, is, is maybe less than 5 years, yeah, so we need to have buildings that have the sufficient floor loading to allow for adaptability, um, and, and well as uh as resilience and the ability to actually change the use of a single floor. In terms of the mix between the data center hall or white space and the plant rooms and all of the other equipment that needs to go into that, so we are having to look at that very, very closely and a firm like Gensler are not engineers, we're purely architects and that's our specialization, a global firm and we work with engineers in very, very close collaboration and together with the clients operations teams as well so that we've got actually sustainable designs with the adapt. Level of adaptability that we envisage. So you've got to take a very long term view of that building structure and its form going forward. I mean, we, we were talking about this kind of before our panel about kind of these sort of misaligned timelines. You have the investment timeline for ROI. You have the construction timeline. You have the timeline for the tech. You have the timeline for AI where it seems to change like once every week what the leading model is. You know, from your perspective, how do you get all these things to align? How do you how do you design your operations to get these timelines to make sense? Yeah, so I think, you know, to level set, I think there's two schools of thought to building data centers, right? There's the enterprise lens, right? These are, you'd be building, um, data centers for multi-tenants, usually smaller, maybe in in more prime locations. There are, um, uh, what we call the hyper scale lens, right? This is where you actually work pretty closely. On a pretty bespoke basis with only a handful of global hyperscalers and you're often building these in sort of, you know, um, at uh near prime locations, right? And these you often build at scale and so what we do is, is primarily hyperscale and so we work really closely with our off-takers, right? So, um, you know, to Piggyback off this point made just now, how we think about futureproofing is, you know, we've got these large campuses we generally sell out portions of it of it at a time to a particular customer. And for the portion that we sell, usually we design a couple of buildings at a time. These buildings are laid out where the corn shell structure is generally transferable across hyperscales, and what goes in are what we call modulized containers or modulized solutions. And so the uh corn shell that we build has the right ceiling, has the right right load, um, uh, support to be able to be so-called future proof, right, um, and what goes in, you know, some of the, you know, modular, um, uh, solutions such as, uh, the power modules, you know, things in there such as UPS and transformers can be swappable, right, and so. On a 5, 1015 year looking basis, um, our customers have the ability to essentially swap out pieces of the Lego brick without, you know, changing the structure, um, and so in a way that's how we align. The the design today with the unknown needs of the future. Um, we need to talk about the stakeholder engagement point because, you know, data centers, they are politically controversial, particularly in the United States, but increasingly here as well. I mean we've already talked about Thailand's decision, Singapore and Malaysia have gone back and forth about whether they want. Them or don't want them, I think Australia made some noise about it and then backtracked so the politics are confusing and there's some controversy around around it even here in Asia. So you know, John, from from your perspective again as you're thinking about data center design and making them part of the community, I mean what are the sorts of things that designers, operators, owners have to do to have communities be more comfortable with this industrial infrastructure now in an urban environment. Well there's an interesting case at the moment which we can't name, not even the country, I'll say it's in Asia, North Asia, um where actually the developer is giving back to the community in the form of a um a retail park. So a large proportion of that site is now being given back to the community um and and. We've, we've done some beautiful renders, we think they're beautiful, the client thinks they're beautiful. We've got to hope that the er that the authorities having jurisdiction, the city mayor and the community also agree. um but um that's, that's an interesting aspect now. So we're seeing much more integration of data centers into um mixed-use developments. Yeah. And not just in, in urban areas but in out of town. Be adjacent to shopping malls and community facilities where we can also be more sustainable in terms of the heat rejection can be used for district heating cooling systems, um there's even a case of swimming pools, would you believe, being heated from er from the rejected heat er coming out of the data center. But we've got to get ready for an evolving er landscape there and how, Campuses are gonna have to be able to er adapt for um. On-site power generation and energy storage is all the more important where the grid is unable to deliver power. And even in places where the grid is robust, Malaysia is a case in point where they've had something like 7 gigawatts of available power in very short order. That is not the case everywhere else, and other parts of Asia Pacific are waiting up to 5 years. I think the average is close to 4 years to get grid connection. Um, Kevin, I, I said I would return to the, to the capital point. And I mean again you read the sums of money that are being raised for AI spending, AI CapEx. I mean was like Alibaba raised $10 billion the other like couple weeks ago on the Hong Kong equity markets. So these are just huge sums of money that are all being put towards data center construction, compute, all of this stuff and you know, to, to ask a slightly sharper question, I mean what do you think about that kind of, you know, big spending huge sums of money approach towards CapEx building these giant compounds. You know, is that approach kind of does that, does that, does that meet the moment like is that more than we need? Is it still not enough both in general but also kind of here in Asia? Yeah, it really depends on what the ultimate use case is, right? And so, you know, there's gonna be segments of demand where, you know, it's what we call traditional workloads and these cloud services that's pretty uh inelastic and it's pretty durable, right? A significant portion what we addressed in Malaysia is for certain clients that, you know, do cloud hosting or video hosting for their social media platforms, right, we think that's pretty robust and pretty durable for the AI. That's a big part of the stack, right? Um, increasingly we're seeing evolving architecture where people are no longer thinking just training or just inference. They wanna deploy the latest generation of chips to do, you know, top shelf training, and when those become more. they start thinking about using that for inference and then later down the line 5-7 years down the line maybe using that for traditional services as well. So I think architecture is moving towards scale towards workload agility, right? And so which is why we're starting to see our customers come to us, say, you know, if you can deliver on a 28, 29 time frame, you can offer a couple 100 megawatts the path with a path to a gigawatt, you know, that's very attractive to them. From the operator lens, right, we're in the business of providing the critical infrastructure or a safe operating environment for our customers. So we where we build right in terms The underlying power commitment and also the fiber connectivity is, you know, it creates a strong moat. And you know from an investor's lens, right, if my initial contract with my off taker more than covers, you know, my build costs or has a good path to covering substantial portion of my build costs, that gives me comfort because I do think, you know, the chance of a second contract and a renewal is pretty high given how critical this infrastructure is for these, you know, large hyperscalers. Um, I don't wanna forget the sustainability energy question and maybe that's a question that maybe is suited for John. So I mean data centers need a lot of power, um, and it already seems like among some governments in Asia that there's a little bit of, let's say, kind of walking back some of the renewable commitments. There's a recognition that like, you know, fossil fuels are pretty reliable and data centers need reliable power. You know, how are you then approaching kind of the sustainability questions when it comes to internet to ensure that there isn't any, that there isn't any kind of real backsliding towards, you know, dirtier forms of energy and other things. Well, in terms of the timeline, we as a firm have made a commitment to um zero carbon by 2030. And that was made at the United Nations by our co-CEO at the time, Diane Hoskins, who now co-chairman. That's looking extremely challenging amongst our 4300 clients. I'm talking beyond data centers now, all 34 market verticals we address. Um, but that's a commitment we're trying to live by. Whether we have to lose some clients along the way, I hope not. But we are trying to ensure that um all of the materials which we are specifying into our buildings have um a. Carbon footprint which is lower than the alternatives, and I can give you an example for a hyperscaler in Europe where phase one we measured the carbon impact of all the materials which were supplied to phase one and for phase two we said, well, actually we need to get all of the vendors to tell us exactly what their data is and we will exclude the offenders in favor of those who have the Lower carbon impact and saved over 25% on the phase two of an almost otherwise identical design but with different material vendors. So that's, and we keep a register of that and those are the kind of ways where through design and tight specification and monitoring of what is installed by general contractors and their subcontractor supply chain. I look forward to seeing a beautiful data center in a neighborhood near me sometime soon. Um, I wanna thank Kevin and John for joining us today and talking through, talking us through this really interesting topic. Please give them a round of applause. Thank you.

Design is re-imagining the places where we work and travel, making them more multipurpose and multifunctional. An architect from the world’s largest architecture firm shows how offices, airports, and lifestyle spaces are evolving to offer more flexibility, choice, and connection to serve professional and personal needs simultaneously.

When Work is an Experience (Not a Place)

From designing corporate culture, we moved to designing corporate spaces. More and more where we work and travel are not just places but entire experiences. Rae Wen, who leads the Hong Kong office for the global design and architecture firm Gensler, has over 20 years specializing in workplace and hospitality projects. He and Fortune's Kristen Soler will explore how offices and airports are evolving, offering much more choice, flexibility, and connection. Please welcome them. All right, Ray, thank you so much for joining me. So Ray, clearly the future of work in the world of work has changed a lot in the past couple of years. So I want to start by asking you what is the most surprising way that people are working today that you didn't anticipate 5 years ago and how are you designing for that today? Um, I think the most exciting thing is work is not work anymore because after COVID, even before COVID, you can work anywhere. Uh, what COVID did was just supercharged it, so I don't know about you guys, but I work 24/7 a week since the phone is there. Some pinged me because we work with US time, European time. You just got to be attentive to your clients, especially global clients, and I think that's the biggest change right now for a lot of the workplace designers, and for me personally, I think it's such an exciting. Um, time in the workplace design arena. Yeah, now I know you said people can work from anywhere, but there are a lot of companies that are requiring their employees to come back into the office 5 days a week. How are you thinking about that, about workers who might be reluctant to come back into an office and return to the office, and how, what does that tell you about kind of employee behavior that corporate leaders are still overlooking? I think the two biggest challenges for a lot of the um corporate real estate heads and Fortune 5G companies is I've got so much asset and if people can work anywhere, how can I drive the utilization up? That's really what the biggest problem to solve. And with AI and technology, a lot of us can't forecast how much head count we're going to have next year. So it used to be like back 10 years ago, I'll get a spreadsheet from a client, oh yeah, this is day 2, day 3 forecast, I'm gonna hire this many people, we'll go do the plan and design. These days that answer just keeps shifting. So what are the biggest changes and challenges is how do we bring people back and make the space transformational so the utilize this can go up. So we're no longer in. The headquarters and campus at least we're no longer just designing workplaces, we're actually designing experiences because if you think of what bringing us together as human beings is, well, if I can work anywhere, why do I want to go to work? I can do it at home. So you really got to make the campus or the workplace be more than work, um, and that's the fun part of it. And from that I just saw a quick slide. Yeah, let's see. We do um surveys every year. I thought this was really interesting. Um, this is actually an employee survey that Genza do annually, um, and then this year in 2025, we, we asked them, you know, from my experience and point of view, what makes a great workplace. And if you look at the top 10, it's really food. It's about wellness, they didn't even mention anything about work, like everybody just like pick all the stuff that really, that we want as a human being. I mean this morning, if you listen to our topics, it's all about that user experience, that human experience, whether it's. About, um, a stadium or workplace or hospitality, is that is the thing that brings us together. Uh, and I think right now, um, what we are doing more than ever is creating teams that can deliver these experiences. Um, I used to have a team of, you know, um, probably 80% workplace designers, planners, strategists, and then 20% probably could do a little bit of breakout and a bit of FFNE, um, but these days I've got event planners. I've got like someone who's full FMB, um, FFME expert, uh, work in hotels, etc. um, and then we talk about experience. What is the entrance experience for the guests, um, how do they mingle with the back of house staff? Like that's the type of conversation that we talk about. So that's a very different landscape. Can you give me an example of something really interesting you designed for a workplace centered around the food experience? Um, yes. I just clicked this slide because it's very similar to this, um, I can't show you the project I'm talking about, this is in super here, uh, project I worked on, um, very passionately this, it was during COVID, it was completed, it was uh 500 square, um, Uh, 50,000 square meters, so roughly around 5000 square feet, um, and the brief from the client was we now got people 50% of my of their staff whilst working from home. Um, how do we bring them back? So we brainstormed with all the stakeholders and the people who are putting money on the table to design this new headquarters in Shua, um, and it turns out in the end we designed it like 15 different food offerings, including trying to bring blue bottle in, uh, we end up, Designing a secret bar that was basically vinyl bar, those of you who have been to Tokyo, it's really big where they got um they play vinyl, you're not allowed to really talk, it's a silent bar. So it's like a no tech bar which is similar to a library concept where you don't talk to your phone, etc. but they just put a spin on it, and that became a memorable experience where everybody go to that headquarter, can I go to the secret bar? And it becomes a story for that global organization. That's the iconic moment. In Tokyo, so that that's a really exciting, uh, still to this day one of the most amazing projects I've worked on. That is really cool, I think. When I think about your job, the toughest part, I think, is you have on one hand you have employees who are like, that is so cool. I would love to go to a record bar. And then on the other hand you have employees that are like, I don't want to spend any more time in the office, and you're tricking me with free food and a bar and this is not going to help me want to go back into the office. How do you, how do you thread the needle and are there any, you know, tricks and tips you use when you're when you're thinking about that, um. It depends on our organization, obviously, because, um, if you work with a tech client versus a financial um client, very different, um, although they both want great experiences, but the kind of offer, um, that they need for other things, other for their staff, in terms of guest experience slightly different, um, there's a lot more labs, um, and also maker space within tech. um, so what we realize now. Um, we used to design for a lot of headquarters, we designed 80%, we leave 20% for the client to flex. What's actually happened now is we designed 50%. The other 50% has to be transformational. So what I mean by that is we are designing less and less built in space, furniture, modularity and removable items, so you can transform a space when you need to from a, Whether it's an FNB for the staff and then transmit event space or a happy hour space for your clients, um, and where you put those within the building it's also very important accessibility from the guest experience, but you also got to be very careful about security because we're working with companies here. So that type of complexity is actually making workplace almost like um creating a mixed use, I call a city in a city, um, and it's, it's very exciting. And a good example is actually this global client of ours. Um, if I didn't tell you, you wouldn't know Sanofi is actually a pharmaceutical R&D, um, tech company. Um, you know, we, we used to think if you're into, um, medical, um, and pharmaceutical, you have white box and say this is the staff and client, um, cafeteria canteen. Um, which is to me, you'll find that in any restaurant, but if you really look carefully at the furniture, it's removable, um, it's layered. It's got different zone, but we try to figure a way how can you transform this space when you need to, but you can still have this space for happy hour, etc. And because work is always on the go, and I think maybe everyone in this room is guilty of, you know, doing their work from an airport on their way to this conference, I know you're also transforming airports and lounge spaces as well. Tell me a bit more about that. Ah, that's a, that's another thing, um, so because we now can work anywhere, uh, what we are finding, I'm gonna skip some of this lie, I'll go straight to the airport. Um, we found that airport is now the new, it's not a transit hub anymore. It's actually a new place where you recharge. Depending on day you go on business or you dare to travel, um, the need at the airport is very different. We used to just go there, check in, it takes forever to line up, right? Now a lot of airports, what they're trying to do is reduce that time to check in. And they're trying to increase the time so you can linger at the after check-in to enjoy the FNB, enjoy the lounges, enjoy whether you want to work, rest, or relax, whatever you want to do, they want to provide that. Um, and surprisingly, um, I mean this is a new terminal that's coming out of JFKK. we now got a lot more outdoor indoor space, natural light, past the actual, um, check-in area. Uh, airports used to be just like you check in, you'd be sitting there waiting. If you're lucky, you're business class or whatever, you're going to go to a lounge, but now it's even just a normal going through the airport you can experience all that. It's a destination. It's no longer just a transit. That's what I think is also interesting about what you do is that you're both creating, you're you're designing these terminals, these lounges as high performance workspaces in and of themselves. Does that risk airports competing with offices? who are you looking to please when you design all this stuff? I think they're becoming. Like all areas of practices, is becoming more and more overlapped. Um, I summarize this just to give a high level. This is what you expect an airport lounge now. It's, it's really about that full, uh, work, play live and rest and recharge, it's all those items expected. So designing these small lounges, you've got to create a setting that have all the layers that cater for whether it's at work or other things and, That's, it becomes a lot more rich the entire experience, um, and that's what we are seeing and it's very exciting. What are some of the most interesting features that you've designed for in an airport or in a lounge that you think are totally things that no one's thinking of? Uh, massage room is getting more and more common. Um, it's, it's almost even if, if those of you fly with Cathay, um, they've had. Massage and wellness for a while, at least in the first class, but it's almost that it's becoming much more of a norm. Like it's not just the best premiere, you'll get that all around the world you see a lot more wellness factor adding in, whether they go full massage chair or massage bed with mass, um, they're going to give that. Offer and that's getting more and more about not just a transitional waiting space, it's how can I make people feel better, more positive flying with a specific airline and that directly relates to their brand. Uh, at the end of the day, all this is still to do business. Nothing comes for free, right? Um, so it's all about trying to express their culture through the experience of the lounge, the airport for the city, and for headquarter to represent that, uh, Fortune 500 company. Now we've talked about the customer. I want to talk about the client because expectations, I think, have changed for you, especially with the advent of AI and predictive analytics. Talk to me about how that has changed your process for for prototyping and what your clients expect from you today, for better or for worse. Um, yeah, exactly, for better or worse. So I will skip this one. It's just one of the new lounges, um, Minor Iconic. I think everything this morning is about more about architecture, big space. I think interiors, we are much more about those, um, the things you can touch and what you can remember when you go through the space experience. So these days there is just a lounge and also a JFK, um, but the hardest thing is we used to get a lot of time to design these, uh, you know, you can, you can say anything up to one year. The challenge for us is we now are expected to produce record speed. Um, one particular client is that I want this in light speed, Ray, light speed. OK, I go what do you mean like light can you just give me ASAP like now, um, so it's quite interesting because AI has transformed how we work. If you look at what I've got up in the screen, the left hand side is a project I worked on around 2 years ago. Um, so what we used to do, I'm more old school, so I'll do hand sketch ideas, narrate it, and start working with my team on looking at the 3D model, we build physical model as well just to see how the space goes, and eventually get to a semi-final one. These are not final output, these are just work in progress. Um, that would take probably about 1 to 2 weeks, depending on the project complexity. Um, the one on the right, that was just last week. Um, it was 1 day, full on, we built a white model first. The client gave us basically 2 to 3 days. It's like the reason he told me, well, I saw my friend clicking on Nano Banana, those of you know that app. Um, and say, well, if they can do it in a second, why can't design firms can do it quicker? So we end up going, OK, because it's hard to explain to a client when they're not architects. Um, as designers we see design as more time, craftsmanship, and you kind of. Bit by bit, get to a result that is the perfect graph, whereas what we're seeing a lot more with the AI, we're now almost like a creator, like all these art pieces, and we try to select what is suitable and that's the only way we can manage that um need from client on speed and time. Um, and it's, you see positive or negative, I think it really depends on the project. Um, your project got time, of course, you can have a lot more ideation and use it as a tool. Um, but what we're seeing more right now is clients asking for immediate response is, it's the trend. I mean, everyone is just so used to clicking and getting it straight away, and they're expecting from the consultants, and I think it's not going to go away. Um, the clients who give you time, um, like what Populists had for the uh the Pearl in Hong Kong and Um, the hotels with Andre food, that's being more rare. There's still those clients, but I think the clients who expect immediate outcomes, we're going to have to find a workflow that can achieve what they need. Now Ray, in our last minute together, I have one last question for you about the future. What's the future scenario that Genzler is actively designing for that most companies haven't even imagined yet that you think is going to be the next big trend of the future? Tomorrow we're going to launch our annual design forecast. This is the 14th edition. I can't answer all that because actually all in here. OK, we're going to share it with everyone today, but I asked, they said no, you've got to wait till tomorrow. All right, what a, what a teaser for all of us to look forward to tomorrow. But the big big one is about experience. It's all about experience, whether you're in a workplace or you're in retail or you're in hospitality, it's all about experience focus. Well, thank you so much, Ray, and good luck with that tomorrow. Thank you.

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